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Post by csee on Jan 18, 2015 2:50:32 GMT 1
I always hope to explore what is the reason people like Dalai Lama have emotion to teach others Buddhism . In my current mind ,Buddhism is a natural process of realization and realization is not knowledge ,is not something human knows or something human can seek to know even is never something human could ever know , so how could anyone teach something that is not knowledge ?
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tamara
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Post by tamara on Jan 19, 2015 5:24:34 GMT 1
Some people need intellectual understanding for direct realization.
Others do not.
Realization entails the understanding that some sentient beings need theoretical knowledge.
This is why Buddha and HH Dalai Lama spread theoretical knowledge.
Tamara
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Post by csee on Jan 19, 2015 8:58:05 GMT 1
Some people need intellectual understanding for direct realization. Others do not. Realization entails the understanding that some sentient beings need theoretical knowledge. This is why Buddha and HH Dalai Lama spread theoretical knowledge. Tamara Do you mean that Dalai Lama after "realization" feel there is a need to spread their "realization" of Buddhism to others ...? So are you saying that both of them have emotion " to teach" others Buddhism after experience realization ? So what is realization to you ? A form of knowledge ? |
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tamara
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Post by tamara on Jan 19, 2015 13:39:08 GMT 1
```Do you mean that Dalai Lama after "realization" feel there is a need to spread their "realization" of Buddhism to others ...? So are you saying that both of them have emotion " to teach" others Buddhism after experience realization ?``` Yes, and this is poorly translated as `compassion`, basically meaning the energy which spreads unhindered for the good of all sentient beings once one is enlightened. ```` So what is realization to you ? A form of knowledge ?````` Yes, the knowledge about how things are including the nature of one`s own mind. To me it looks like one person who knows is Chogyal Namkhai Norbu www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkNSaVF23zQ, apart from others. In this interview he talks about topics related to your question ( ``` to know one`s own condition```). Tamara |
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Post by csee on Jan 19, 2015 16:55:57 GMT 1
```Do you mean that Dalai Lama after "realization" feel there is a need to spread their "realization" of Buddhism to others ...? So are you saying that both of them have emotion " to teach" others Buddhism after experience realization ?``` Yes, and this is poorly translated as `compassion`, basically meaning the energy which spreads unhindered for the good of all sentient beings once one is enlightened. ```` So what is realization to you ? A form of knowledge ?````` Yes, the knowledge about how things are including the nature of one`s own mind. To me it looks like one person who knows is Chogyal Namkhai Norbu www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkNSaVF23zQ, apart from others. In this interview he talks about topics related to your question ( ``` to know one`s own condition```). Tamara So you are saying realization is a form of knowledge ? Is something one could learn to achieve ? I am now discussing with Tamara so Chogyal is not an interest to me ....can Tamara explain how could one have any reason that makes him have emotion to be a teacher to others ? |
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Post by csee on Jan 21, 2015 23:07:15 GMT 1
In my current mind , human are living in a world of "accepted confusion" accepting knowledge as referral / guide living their life . Knowledge has became the "life" of human and human has became the knowledge itself . Awaken to own emotion and the natural process of Buddhism , one will realized the separation . One will awaken to realized own emotion of desire , love , greed , fear , will , ego etc is all mostly contributed by attachment on knowledge . Buddhism in my current mind is a process of realization but human culture has used their limited knowledge to describe " Buddhism" and now Buddhism has became part of human knowledge . In my current mind , Buddhism is not limited to human knowledge , is far beyond the human knowledge ...Buddhism is not what we know , is not something we can seek to know and will never be something we could ever know ........knowledge is just like a tiny piece of sand in the ocean . People like Dalai Lama has mis-leading millions of people a round the world by describing that piece of sand and name it as ocean . He position had cause millions of people regard all his world is referral to Buddhism . Currently I have no reason to agree with him and I hope to debate with all you guys that agree with him for my own learning lesson .
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tamara
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Post by tamara on Jan 22, 2015 4:13:02 GMT 1
HH Dalai Lama`s teachings are not misleading.
It is the people who do not understand what he says. He speaks on a theoretical level and at the same time the resultant level is included.
Same like in the video I suggested to you.
The 2 interviewers at times have no the slightest clue what Chogyal N.Norbu says.
It is shocking and hilarious to see.
This is how it is.
Until one understands one will keep mis-understanding and even blaming the one, who knows, for misleading……. Shocking, sad and hilarious at the same time.
I did it myself a lot. I ran away from my first meditation claiming that `all these people` are not only crazy but downright dangerous. This was in the early 80ies and it took me a decade to come back to the topic again.
I also think that we have a different understanding of `knowledge` here in this thread.
What I mean by this term is `knowledge of the nature of the mind`, knowledge of how things ultimately are etc. These words do not mean anything to anybody until one gets an actual glimpse of their meaning through experience.
What you speak about is probably `intellectual knowledge`.
Intellectual knowledge can lead nearer to realization but is NOT realization. It is just one of many paths which leads to realization.
Buddhism provides a graded path and especially the Gelug headed by HH Dalai Lama are said to be intellectually oriented. This is, I suppose, to protect the further teachings, which lead to direct realization. If these teachings are given too early, they have no effect, are mis-understood.
There is such a richness of paths and means in Buddhism....and sometimes we do not see it.
Sometimes we are stuck until the next path opens up.
Go in a Buddhist book shop and choose what appeals to you or google words which make sense.
Oh my, .....is it me who gives these advice ? Right now I remember spending years not being able to resolve the `conflict` between the Gelug and Nyigma-teaching approach. Then I understood: The conflict was in my head only. Took me years of confusion and even anger.
These are stages we have to go through.
Tamara
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Post by csee on Jan 22, 2015 8:22:59 GMT 1
HH Dalai Lama`s teachings are not misleading. It is the people who do not understand what he says. He speaks on a theoretical level and at the same time the resultant level is included. Let me try to understand you with our current human culture on the word " Mis-leading". If o a group of people seeking you to explain a cake and you are only focusing on the sugar ......is the sugar is the cake ? Dalai Lama is focusing how should a person live in our culture ...in fact in my current mind , he is promoting people to creates more emotion and with an increased emotion , suffering or joy is the nature of this path . Same like in the video I suggested to you. The 2 interviewers at times have no the slightest clue what Chogyal N.Norbu says. It is shocking and hilarious to see. This is how it is. Until one understands one will keep mis-understanding and even blaming the one, who knows, for misleading……. Shocking, sad and hilarious at the same time. I did it myself a lot. I ran away from my first meditation claiming that `all these people` are not only crazy but downright dangerous. This was in the early 80ies and it took me a decade to come back to the topic again. To me , nothing is right or wrong , nothing is true or false , nothing is good or bad . If I see a monk holding Dalai Lama statues on his head and trying to be like Dalai Lama , to me that is nor right or wrong , nor true or false , nor good or bad ...because the monk is in his process of Buddhism , he is in his process of discovering his emotion same process I am in and I can only study and learn from him . With his act , with his reason I will discover my emotion . This monk will always be my teacher same like all human , all animal , all plant , all micro-orgsm , all non-living like table , rock , dust , Coca- Cola can etc ...all action , all re-action , all happening is a great source of discovering own emotion , thats my current mind of Buddhism.I also think that we have a different understanding of `knowledge` here in this thread. What I mean by this term is `knowledge of the nature of the mind`, knowledge of how things ultimately are etc. These words do not mean anything to anybody until one gets an actual glimpse of their meaning through experience. What you speak about is probably `intellectual knowledge`. Intellectual knowledge can lead nearer to realization but is NOT realization. It is just one of many paths which leads to realization. Perhaps we can discuss more on "knowledge". To me knowledge is accepted information in our society . Just like our common knowledge of what is the sun , what is water , who is Micheal Jackson , Obama is US president etc ....1+1=2 that is knowledge . Human culture had caused human living by the knowledge and became the knowledge itself . Buddhism to me is a natural process of back into original condition of " nothingness" - The Buddha , is metal rusty , food decay , meat rot , table becoming wear and tear , rock erode , human becoming emotionless by a lengthy process of realization . One will need to be awaken to this process by realization ...realizing own existence ...realizing emotion is causing his existence ....that is my current mind of Buddhism.Buddhism provides a graded path and especially the Gelug headed by HH Dalai Lama are said to be intellectually oriented. This is, I suppose, to protect the further teachings, which lead to direct realization. If these teachings are given too early, they have no effect, are mis-understood. There is such a richness of paths and means in Buddhism....and sometimes we do not see it. Sometimes we are stuck until the next path opens up. Go in a Buddhist book shop and choose what appeals to you or google words which make sense. Oh my, .....is it me who gives these advice ? Right now I remember spending years not being able to resolve the `conflict` between the Gelug and Nyigma-teaching approach. Then I understood: The conflict was in my head only. Took me years of confusion and even anger. These are stages we have to go through. Tamara Tamara , sorry in advance the reason I posted here is to discuss with you ..of your reason of "beliefs".....your reason of creating " faith" of what you choose to believe not to discuss on others reason because we can only imagine what is their reason of their understanding ...so please only bring Tamara here . |
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matt
Senior Member
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Post by matt on Jan 22, 2015 20:29:15 GMT 1
csee said: "People like Dalai Lama has mis-leading millions of people a round the world by describing that piece of sand and name it as ocean ."
The Dalai Lama is one of the few people I have ever encountered that I believe is not deceiving themselves or others.
Your approach seems very deceptive to me, csee, because you always say you are only engaging us for the sake of your own learning, but you do not seem to learn anything, because you constantly repeat the same points you were making when you first posted here a year or two ago.
If your questions were sincere, I think you would be influenced by the many answers you have gotten from many people online, but you show no sign of being influenced at all.
In other words, if your were sincere you would appear to learn, not just repeat that you are learning, but show signs of it.
It is obvious that the possibility of anyone having faith in a Buddhist teacher bothers you a great deal, because you constantly work to undermine that.
Is this because you are jealous of the attention and admiration they get, while you do not? Or is there some kind of political agenda at work?
If I had to guess, I would say you have a condition known in Western Psychology as the Borderline Personality Disorder that manifests as Passive Aggressive Behavior.
Borderline Personality Disorder is a fairly common, but disabling condition, that seems to be an adaptation to prolonged anxiety. People who manifest these symptoms are very disruptive to any community they interact with.
You have told us you have often been banned from this kind of forum. That is because your behavior is seen as disruptive to the purpose of the forum.
People with BPD cause a lot of conflict at work and at home, because they are always looking for the source of their anxiety outside themselves, and never come to understand that the problem and the solution are within their own heart and mind.
Because they can not see or admit the problem is inside themselves, they never take responsibility for it.
Consequently, it is considered to be a nearly impossible condition to treat or cure by councilors, psychologists and psychiatrists.
It is advised that these mental health professionals only have one or two clients with this condition, because they require a lot of attention and there is rarely any progress in treating them. This is often a cause of burn out for the professional if they have more than one such patient.
It is often said that this condition arrises from an absence of trust, on a deep level.
This inability to trust works to isolate the individual.
If I am deeply suspicious of your motivations, of everyone's motivations, then I can not learn anything from them, because I can not bring myself to trust or validate anything they say, even if I really want to. That is how Borderline Personality Disorders are believed to develop.
You seem to want to interact with us, but it has to be on your own terms.
You say you want to debate us, but you do not want common terms.
We can not quote any teacher or text.
You repeat your reasons for these "rules" any chance you get, but never seem to consider our reasons for trying a different approach.
You repeat yourself constantly, and refer endlessly to your realizations, and your present understanding that never seems to grow or change.
I have known some of the other people here for years, I have watched them progress on their path and grow as individuals. I have seen their understanding deepen, their wisdom develop and their confidence rise.
You are static by comparison, you do not appear to be growing or changing in any meaningful way.
You are misleading your self, and this means a great deal of what you say to others is inherently deceptive.
Please understand I am not angry with you. I feel very patient and calm.
The problem you want to address is not with the Dalai Lama or any other Buddha or Buddhist teacher.
The problem you want to address,
The source of the deception,
is inside you.
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Post by csee on Jan 22, 2015 23:18:47 GMT 1
csee said: "People like Dalai Lama has mis-leading millions of people a round the world by describing that piece of sand and name it as ocean ."
The Dalai Lama is one of the few people I have ever encountered that I believe is not deceiving themselves or others. Your approach seems very deceptive to me, csee, because you always say you are only engaging us for the sake of your own learning, but you do not seem to learn anything, because you constantly repeat the same points you were making when you first posted here a year or two ago. If your questions were sincere, I think you would be influenced by the many answers you have gotten from many people online, but you show no sign of being influenced at all. In other words, if your were sincere you would appear to learn, not just repeat that you are learning, but show signs of it. Dear Matt , thanks for reply . Awaken to Buddhism , one will constantly in a condition of readiness of change and is always changing . I am different person each second even now ......Buddhism is a natural process of realization not determination of knowledge . Knowledge is just a tiny little part of this process and is never something for keep ........so awaken to own emotion and Buddhism , learning is a condition NOT emotion to discover ....awaken to Buddhism , one will flow living with life without resisting the process by creating more emotion but rather realizing the emotion itself and as one travel into this path emotion will be naturally and gradually reduced . I am learning each moment and I never holds any faith or believe .....so perhaps is you holding "me" in you , is you keeping "me" together with your emotion .....to me currently , everyone / anything / all happening is a great source of discovering my emotion ...but I never creates any desire or emotion to judge others simply learn from them and with this condition , you same as Dalai Lama same as any human , living or non-living will always be a great teacher to me . ......so to me Buddhism is all about own learning process , all about discovering own emotion , all about realization of own existence / cause of own existence ...not to be confused to judge whether our neighbor wife put salt in her cooking or not and imagine the taste of her cooking .
It is obvious that the possibility of anyone having faith in a Buddhist teacher bothers you a great deal, because you constantly work to undermine that. Is this because you are jealous of the attention and admiration they get, while you do not? Or is there some kind of political agenda at work? If I had to guess, I would say you have a condition known in Western Psychology as the Borderline Personality Disorder that manifests as Passive Aggressive Behavior. Borderline Personality Disorder is a fairly common, but disabling condition, that seems to be an adaptation to prolonged anxiety. People who manifest these symptoms are very disruptive to any community they interact with. You have told us you have often been banned from this kind of forum. That is because your behavior is seen as disruptive to the purpose of the forum. People with BPD cause a lot of conflict at work and at home, because they are always looking for the source of their anxiety outside themselves, and never come to understand that the problem and the solution are within their own heart and mind. Because they can not see or admit the problem is inside themselves, they never take responsibility for it. Consequently, it is considered to be a nearly impossible condition to treat or cure by councilors, psychologists and psychiatrists. It is advised that these mental health professionals only have one or two clients with this condition, because they require a lot of attention and there is rarely any progress in treating them. This is often a cause of burn out for the professional if they have more than one such patient. It is often said that this condition arrises from an absence of trust, on a deep level. This inability to trust works to isolate the individual. If I am deeply suspicious of your motivations, of everyone's motivations, then I can not learn anything from them, because I can not bring myself to trust or validate anything they say, even if I really want to. That is how Borderline Personality Disorders are believed to develop. Perhaps you could read your writng over and over again and discover your emotion here ..........sorry in advance , I sense you are suffering of creating more emotion due to my writing ........
You seem to want to interact with us, but it has to be on your own terms. You say you want to debate us, but you do not want common terms. We can not quote any teacher or text. You repeat your reasons for these "rules" any chance you get, but never seem to consider our reasons for trying a different approach. You repeat yourself constantly, and refer endlessly to your realizations, and your present understanding that never seems to grow or change. I have known some of the other people here for years, I have watched them progress on their path and grow as individuals. I have seen their understanding deepen, their wisdom develop and their confidence rise. You are static by comparison, you do not appear to be growing or changing in any meaningful way. You are misleading your self, and this means a great deal of what you say to others is inherently deceptive. Please understand I am not angry with you. I feel very patient and calm. The problem you want to address is not with the Dalai Lama or any other Buddha or Buddhist teacher. The problem you want to address, The source of the deception, is inside you. The reason is I just want to talk in person ..not to discuss on others . If I talk to you , I just hope to discover from your emotion , your reasons of believe etc not your imagination of what a third party emotion .........and I have reason to believe we can discuss / debate Buddhism without quoting any terminologies and engage in endless war of defining the term......why cant you explain in simple language ? Again to me , Buddhism is all about own discovery , I never live in other life or even filling in my life ...I just living together with the life ...not in the life . Please let me know if you need further explanation
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matt
Senior Member
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Post by matt on Jan 22, 2015 23:56:32 GMT 1
csee wrote: Dear Matt , thanks for reply . Awaken to Buddhism , one will constantly in a condition of readiness of change and is always changing . I am different person each second even now ......Buddhism is a natural process of realization not determination of knowledge . Knowledge is just a tiny little part of this process and is never something for keep ........so awaken to own emotion and Buddhism , learning is a condition NOT emotion to discover ....awaken to Buddhism , one will flow living with life without resisting the process by creating more emotion but rather realizing the emotion itself and as one travel into this path emotion will be naturally and gradually reduced . I am learning each moment and I never holds any faith or believe .....so perhaps is you holding "me" in you , is you keeping "me" together with your emotion .....to me currently , everyone / anything / all happening is a great source of discovering my emotion ...but I never creates any desire or emotion to judge others simply learn from them and with this condition , you same as Dalai Lama same as any human , living or non-living will always be a great teacher to me . ......so to me Buddhism is all about own learning process , all about discovering own emotion , all about realization of own existence / cause of own existence ...not to be confused to judge whether our neighbor wife put salt in her cooking or not and imagine the taste of her cooking .
Perhaps you could read your writng over and over again and discover your emotion here ..........sorry in advance , I sense you are suffering of creating more emotion due to my writing ........
The reason is I just want to talk in person ..not to discuss on others . If I talk to you , I just hope to discover from your emotion , your reasons of believe etc not your imagination of what a third party emotion .........and I have reason to believe we can discuss / debate Buddhism without quoting any terminologies and engage in endless war of defining the term......why cant you explain in simple language ? Again to me , Buddhism is all about own discovery , I never live in other life or even filling in my life ...I just living together with the life ...not in the life . Please let me know if you need further explanation
You have said all of these things many times on this forum. You have repeated the same statements, the same reasons, over and over again each time you post.
How are we to believe that you are always changing, never grasping on to concepts, but always present, when you say the same things over and over, regardless of what others have said? I do not think you are free in the ways you describe, I think you are stuck. Frozen in place, because you can not let anyone influence you. You are afraid to change.
My emotions are resolved as they arise, I am happy to say. Don't worry about my emotions, if you want to talk to me, just talk, there is no problem. I feel calm and happy. I am just being honest with you. I do not believe you are the way you advertise yourself. I believe, instead you are afraid to learn, because it means change, and you are afraid to change. That is very different than the way you describe yourself, but the proof of change is change.
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Post by csee on Jan 23, 2015 1:51:00 GMT 1
csee wrote: Dear Matt , thanks for reply . Awaken to Buddhism , one will constantly in a condition of readiness of change and is always changing . I am different person each second even now ......Buddhism is a natural process of realization not determination of knowledge . Knowledge is just a tiny little part of this process and is never something for keep ........so awaken to own emotion and Buddhism , learning is a condition NOT emotion to discover ....awaken to Buddhism , one will flow living with life without resisting the process by creating more emotion but rather realizing the emotion itself and as one travel into this path emotion will be naturally and gradually reduced . I am learning each moment and I never holds any faith or believe .....so perhaps is you holding "me" in you , is you keeping "me" together with your emotion .....to me currently , everyone / anything / all happening is a great source of discovering my emotion ...but I never creates any desire or emotion to judge others simply learn from them and with this condition , you same as Dalai Lama same as any human , living or non-living will always be a great teacher to me . ......so to me Buddhism is all about own learning process , all about discovering own emotion , all about realization of own existence / cause of own existence ...not to be confused to judge whether our neighbor wife put salt in her cooking or not and imagine the taste of her cooking .
Perhaps you could read your writng over and over again and discover your emotion here ..........sorry in advance , I sense you are suffering of creating more emotion due to my writing ........
The reason is I just want to talk in person ..not to discuss on others . If I talk to you , I just hope to discover from your emotion , your reasons of believe etc not your imagination of what a third party emotion .........and I have reason to believe we can discuss / debate Buddhism without quoting any terminologies and engage in endless war of defining the term......why cant you explain in simple language ? Again to me , Buddhism is all about own discovery , I never live in other life or even filling in my life ...I just living together with the life ...not in the life . Please let me know if you need further explanation You have said all of these things many times on this forum. You have repeated the same statements, the same reasons, over and over again each time you post. How are we to believe that you are always changing, never grasping on to concepts, but always present, when you say the same things over and over, regardless of what others have said? I do not think you are free in the ways you describe, I think you are stuck. Frozen in place, because you can not let anyone influence you. You are afraid to change. Dear Matt , sorry in advance , if one awaken to Buddhism , one will never judge whether his neighbor wife should put salt in her cooking or imagine the taste of her cooking without salt .....one will always learn own emotion and all happening is always a great source of learning / discovering own emotion without creating more emotion and suffer of that emotion . Dear Matt , I realized my process of Buddhism , I realized I am constantly in Buddhism , I realized nothing is outside Buddhism , I realized all living or non-living are in Buddhism ...........I realized I never stay in any level of understanding and always in condition of change ........sorry in advance , perhaps you should awaken to your life , awaken to your emotion , awaken to the cause of your existence and start living your life......Dear Matt , I always learning from you and others without creation any emotion and suffering of such emotion ...the more I learn , I realized my emotion is gradually reduced not increased ...I am more at peace now .........My emotions are resolved as they arise, I am happy to say. Don't worry about my emotions, if you want to talk to me, just talk, there is no problem. I feel calm and happy. I am just being honest with you. I do not believe you are the way you advertise yourself. I believe, instead you are afraid to learn, because it means change, and you are afraid to change. That is very different than the way you describe yourself, but the proof of change is change. Dear Matt , in my current mind , change is not something noticeable , is not something we could compare before and after .......why ? because awaken to Buddhism there is no " before" or "after" .....awaken to Buddhism and own emotion , one will never hold on any emotion , never resisting the process of Buddhism but just flow with the process . I am changing because of my condition , because of realization on the condition I am in ...........that is my current understanding of Buddhism . But if one hold on to own emotion or faith or beliefs ...is just like resisting the process of Buddhism , is just like making a wall to block the flow of the river ..one will always suffering of own action .....and during such process even if one change , he still making the same wall in different location and continue suffer again and again .
Dear Matt , human created knowledge , created a culture of gaining knowledge and has became the knowledge itself . With such knowledge , human created more emotion , more desire , more love , more fear/greed/ego etc ...the more emotions will lead into creation of more " human" and suffering or joy is the nature of this path ........human holds on to own emotion / own knowledge and try their best to keep their knowledge and along this process they do change but still continue to hold on to the new knowledge .....in my current mind , they are just making the same wall in the same river but only changing of location ..........and they will always suffer of their own action because regardless how high is the wall , regardless how strong is the wall , still the water will flow into the sea ....Buddhism is about realization of own suffering , realization of own existence and the cause of own existence .........and realization of own suffering by making the wall over and over again .
Dear matt , why are you suggest to me is to continue making the wall ... ? |
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Post by csee on Jan 23, 2015 2:06:36 GMT 1
Dear Matt , allow me to share my story . In most if not all Buddhism website I am in , many "master" have different understanding and dis-agree with me , to me that is very good for my learning process because I could learn more from the discussion / debate ...but many member instead of challenging views or debate but start to make so many accusation of me ...some even sending very-very rude private message to me and most of the time , I will end up being banned . Dear Matt , I hope this is not happening here .....I notice you have a strong faith on your beliefs and have strong reason to your beliefs therefore you is a great source of learning for me . I sincerely hoping to debate with you in here or you could contact me at 1988csee@gmail.com .............I am sincere , my name is Ee Chuan Seng from Malaysia .......
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matt
Senior Member
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Post by matt on Jan 23, 2015 2:43:48 GMT 1
Dear csee, From what I can tell, based only on what you write in this forum, Ee Chuan Seng from Malaysia is very jealous of the attention, admiration and respect that famous Buddhist teachers, such as His Holiness the Dalai Lama, garner from people all over the world. Ee Chuan Seng believes he deserves such attention, admiration and respect, and that the famous Buddhist teachers are only famous and held in such high regard, because the rest of us are foolish. It is not uncommon for 100,000 people to get up at 4:00 in the morning, to go hear the Dalai Lama teach, but no one would cross the street to hear Ee Chuan Seng teach. In fact, people would rather ban him from a forum than risk having to read his posts. Perhaps I am foolish, but I find real wisdom and intelligent advice in the teachings and comments of His Holiness the Dalai Lama. I find a lot of redundant, disrespectful and self aggrandizing boasts in the writing of Ee Chuan Seng from Malaysia.  Why does the Dalai Lama teach? Why does any Buddha teach? Because they are bound to sentient beings by compassion, and they have skillful means of guiding others to enlightenment. That is my current understanding. |
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Post by csee on Jan 23, 2015 8:20:29 GMT 1
Dear csee, From what I can tell, based only on what you write in this forum, Ee Chuan Seng from Malaysia is very jealous of the attention, admiration and respect that famous Buddhist teachers, such as His Holiness the Dalai Lama, garner from people all over the world. Ee Chuan Seng believes he deserves such attention, admiration and respect, and that the famous Buddhist teachers are only famous and held in such high regard, because the rest of us are foolish.It is not uncommon for 100,000 people to get up at 4:00 in the morning, to go hear the Dalai Lama teach, but no one would cross the street to hear Ee Chuan Seng teach. In fact, people would rather ban him from a forum than risk having to read his posts. Why do you have such emotion ? Why do you need to create emotion and imagination of me ? The reason I introduced myself to you simply because I hope you to know that I am honestly and sincerely would like to invite you for a debate ...do you actually think I trying to get attention ? From who ? Dear Matt , perhaps you are too-too far from understanding me and by continuosly making so many accusation will only create more confusion of your intention .
Dear Matt , perhaps I have to share some of my real life story to you so that you will not hurt yourself again and again . I was suffering from depression at the age of ten fearing death ...I feared death to maximum even scream every night , running non stop until I fall ..etc then my extreme fear of death lead me to a realization and later I found the meaning of Buddhism ....awaken to my emotion and the natural process of existence , I found peace ......now I am more at peace but as a father to a 13 years old daughter , I still have lots of love towards my daughter ..........and awaken to Buddhism , I realized my own emotion and I am in my journey discovering my emotion and sharing my realization with my daughter so that she will not have to experience the pain of fear , pain of sickness or departed like me . Dear matt ...I am facing my own emotion , my fear , my desire , my love and the coffin is getting nearer to me each moment do you actually think I care of attention ? Do you realized not only me but you are also dying ....? Do you realized we are all dying ? Do you realized death can happens any moment ? Sorry in advance , if you like to eat cake , that is you but I never like even to taste it .....is not me and the one you mention is you in me .Perhaps I am foolish, but I find real wisdom and intelligent advice in the teachings and comments of His Holiness the Dalai Lama. I find a lot of redundant, disrespectful and self aggrandizing boasts in the writing of Ee Chuan Seng from Malaysia. Dear Matt , I always asked Dalai Lama in his facebook for a debate and the first question if I have the chance to ask him is what is his reason of teaching others Buddhism as I could not find any reason for anyone including Siddharta himself for teaching Buddhism as I currently of the mind that Buddhism is not knowledge , Buddhism is realization of own existence / cause of own existence so how can anyone teach something that is not knowledge ? Dear Matt , as I have said many-many times you like any other living or non-living are teacher to me , providing great source of discovery for me ...and is never my intention to teach others as I have no reason to teach others Buddhism ...but I can only learn / discover my emotion from all happening , all sources ...from the rubbish outside my house or from the pen on the table ...and certainly from you .Why does the Dalai Lama teach? Why does any Buddha teach? Because they are bound to sentient beings by compassion, and they have skillful means of guiding others to enlightenment. That is my current understanding. If you have faith that is their reason , would you interested to accept my invitation to debate ?
Dear Matt , what is compassion to you ? Seems to me the compassion you mention is very much resulted by emotion and by creation of more emotion and having intention to guide other into a goal of " enlightenment ".
Dear Matt , allow me to share my current version of " compassion" in regards to Buddhism .
As one awaken to own emotion and the natural process of existence - The Buddhism , he will realized his existence is caused by his attachment of emotion ...he realized that his emotion is greatly caused by his attachment of knowledge , he realized the separation of knowledge with emotion , emotion with culture etc ...he realized he is always alone in the journey of his will of his choice in his world , he realized he is same as any living or non-living .....he realized all is travelling in same journey as him back into the original state of nothingness - The Buddha .......he realized nothing is owned by him nor any human including "his" body , any animal , any plant , any material is never belong to him ...he realized there is no special emotion for anyone or anything .... ........he sees " his" parent same as any old people , he sees all children as "his" child , he sees any animal as "himself "...So as he travel into this path , his emotion will gradually and naturally decreased ...and further into a condition freedom of emotion - The emptiness back into the original state without any condition - The Buddha / The nothingness
so he cares for others not because of his emotion " to care" but because of his condition for caring ...he care for the needy not because he realized ' they" in need but he sees himself in them and helping himself ...he sees all needy as himself as he sees " no other".....so this condition can be easily mistaken as " compassion" as what human knows ...but in my current mind , it is totally different perception ...Compassion in Buddhism is a CONDITION of being less attachment of emotion but the compassion as what the knowledge I learned from society is resulted by creation of more emotion ....
Dear Matt , I sincerely hope you could discover your emotion by reading your writing over and over again ...I feel your suffering and sorry in advance
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matt
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Post by matt on Jan 23, 2015 9:05:51 GMT 1
Compassion is the result of knowing that you are bound to all sentient beings, that you have never been separate from them, and that they have all, at one time or another been your mother. Compassion can be expressed as an emotion, but this is an early stage, and not the goal or true nature of compassion. Ultimate compassion is simply knowing the true nature of phenomena, which means knowing your own true nature, who you really are, how you truly are, and recognizing this in others. In their ignorance sentient beings flee from suffering and grasp at pleasurable experiences. This reinforces the delusion of a separate and inherently existing self, and it is a deeply ingrained habit. So deep and so old it is even in the most basic sense consciousness, and can be observed in the earliest stages of the evolution of sentient beings. Cultivating compassion conquers fear. Fearless beings see reality for what it is. They recognize the poisons they have always avoided are actually the cure. |
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Post by csee on Jan 23, 2015 9:21:29 GMT 1
Compassion is the result of knowing that you are bound to all sentient beings, that you have never been separate from them, and that they have all, at one time or another been your mother. I canbt say I totally understand you , perhaps you could explain further ...but to me currently , If one still attached of "knowledge" , still create more emotion resulted by knowledge .....such compassion is driven by emotion and in my current mind , all emotion like desire , love , fear , greed , ego etc are all same . So tell me , how could one be "compassion" if he still crying his own emotion like greed / love / fear etc ?
I sincerely hope you could stay and continue to express your mind as I am learning from you .... |
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Post by csee on Jan 23, 2015 13:16:36 GMT 1
Compassion is the result of knowing that you are bound to all sentient beings, that you have never been separate from them, and that they have all, at one time or another been your mother. Compassion can be expressed as an emotion, but this is an early stage, and not the goal or true nature of compassion. Ultimate compassion is simply knowing the true nature of phenomena, which means knowing your own true nature, who you really are, how you truly are, and recognizing this in others. So you are referring compassion as part of knowledge ? So you mean by knowing your true nature you are compassionate ? Let me ask you , why do millions of people still smoking , do you think they does not know smoking bad for health ? but why some people after they have cancer they stopped smoking ? Because they realized ...because realization is NOT knowledge ............If someone tell you our nature is nothingness , and he must be compassionate ?
Dear sir , in my current understanding compassion is NOT resulted by emotion but is a CONDITION of being less emotion ..
but you are in totally different mind , please lets debate in detail as I am trying to learn from you .
Is easy to know what I am but is a struggle to forget who I am ...Buddhism is a process forgetting who you are and realizing what are you ........and freedom of your emotion naturally .
In their ignorance sentient beings flee from suffering and grasp at pleasurable experiences. This reinforces the delusion of a separate and inherently existing self, and it is a deeply ingrained habit. So deep and so old it is even in the most basic sense consciousness, and can be observed in the earliest stages of the evolution of sentient beings. Cultivating compassion conquers fear. Fearless beings see reality for what it is. They recognize the poisons they have always avoided are actually the cure. I cant say I understand you fully , perhaps you could further explain . Cultivating compassion will lead into creation of more mind , more emotion and suffering or joy will be the nature of this path . |
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Post by csee on Jan 23, 2015 23:58:57 GMT 1
Dear Matt I had read your reason of "compassion" and currently of the opinion that your acceptance of the meaning of compassion is very much influenced by our current human knowledge , in our current "Buddhist society" . Perhaps this is due to how " Buddhism" is being introduced by "master" like Dalai Lama .
In my current mind , Buddhism has no limitation , not limited to what human knows , is not something human can seek and understand and is never something human could ever know ......Buddhism is not limited to knowledge therefore by knowing Buddhism and further leads to faith , one had created a wall of confusion and living in within that wall , suffering of own emotion . In my current mind , nothing could stop this natural process back into original state of nothingness as it is natural ......we do not need to explain how things happen ....awaken to Buddhism , one will realized that thing happens as it happens because it should be happen because happening is it nature of Buddhism ...because Buddhism is the process of happening . So as one travel naturally to that stage , one will free from all desire to know , free of all emotion on knowing , free of the desire to hold on to the knowledge .
Do not mis-understand my condition , I am currently still full of pollutant , still full of desire for food / joy / sex / beer / money / lots of money / love etc ....as I just knowing my condition and it is very far from realizing it , accepting it or freedom of it .
Dear Matt , for at least 5 years ( maybe 7 ) I had sent email , comment in Dalai Lama facebook hoping this great teacher or any teacher that agree with him for debate ..so far a few teacher , even Buddhism scholar have came and debated with me ....I indeed had learnt from them but so far most ( maybe all ) end up wanting me to use text as the basis of determination of Buddhism ........and seems to me without such referral , they do could not even talk about Buddhism . Even there was a " abbot" told me that he had a vow , a commitment to his teacher and must follow his teacher teaching ...he must be a good student and a good student must follow teacher's teaching . I was truly surprise but I had learned from his explanation .
Many people out there accept " compassion" is a true nature of kindness , true nature of helping others , true nature of experiencing others pain etc ....and people like Dalai Lama is constantly promoting people to cultivate this emotion . For years I notice , Dalai Lama is promoting people to be a better human to live in a better world ....Yes as human living in current society , he is right and his works is great for an ideal living .......but in the same time , he is confusing others of Buddhism itself .
People will accept Buddhism is a kind of culture of doing good , doing charity , acting good , be kind / be compassionate ....and by promoting this action . one will creates more emotion , more desire to do good , more intention , more love etc .....more emotion will increased "human" itself and human will become more humane .......and suffering or joy is the nature of this path . As I currently see it , Dalai Lama is bringing millions of people swimming against the current and people will only suffering of fatigue .
Dalai Lama is telling people how to live a better life in our current society but Buddhism is beyond living in the society .....beyond being human ......and Dalai Lama explanation will lead people to believe that he know Buddhism ......yet Dalai Lama is just explaining a tiny piece of sand in the ocean and because of his title / position , people will believe that piece of sand is the ocean . Dalai Lama words is only tiny little part of Buddhism , just like a piece of sand in the ocean and will mis-lead people to believe that they had seen the ocean , is seems to me , Dalai Lama is bring people into longer journey / greater suffering to realization.
Dear matt , as I have said in my current mind , compassion in Buddhism is a condition of mind , seeing no others except own emotion .......awaken to Buddhism , one will help any old people as he helps his father as he realized he is that old people .......not creating more emotion of love , caring ,desire to help because this will increased his emotion , increased his reason to live and suffering is the nature of this path . Dear matt , if you have your own reason to agree with Dalai Lama please allow me to learn by debate .
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matt
Senior Member
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Post by matt on Jan 24, 2015 0:11:51 GMT 1
There are two kinds or levels of compassion, relative and ultimate. You will notice I mentioned that compassion can be expressed as emotion, but this is an early stage, and not the goal or true nature of compassion. This is relative compassion. Also compassion can be understood and talked about, that is also relative compassion. But most of my post dealt with ultimate compassion, which is direct and non-conceptual experience. When I say it is knowing, that means having this direct and non-conceptual experience, and does not mean knowledge the way you are using the term.
I have come to believe that everything you write about is conceptual, because you are so eager to disagree with and debate people. That is intellectual energy at work. Non-conceptual realization occurs in profound silence and the experience generally makes people less competitive and less excited about arguing with others and defeating them in debate.
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