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Faith
Jul 30, 2014 21:56:32 GMT 1
Post by Will on Jul 30, 2014 21:56:32 GMT 1
Many Western Buddhist have difficulty with 'faith' in a Buddhist context. So this thread will give some Dharma quotes that point out the necessity and value of this basic attitude.
From chapter 22 of the Avatamsaka Sutra
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Faith
Jul 31, 2014 17:41:31 GMT 1
Post by Will on Jul 31, 2014 17:41:31 GMT 1
Avatamsaka Sutra, ch. 1
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Faith
Aug 1, 2014 15:59:02 GMT 1
Post by Will on Aug 1, 2014 15:59:02 GMT 1
Lalitavistara Sutra chapter seven
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Faith
Aug 5, 2014 16:54:46 GMT 1
Post by Will on Aug 5, 2014 16:54:46 GMT 1
Mahayanasutralamkara with Vasubandhu's comment, from Thurman pp. 107-08
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Faith
Aug 7, 2014 14:34:51 GMT 1
Post by spinynorman on Aug 7, 2014 14:34:51 GMT 1
It's worth making the general observation that in Buddhism "faith" has the meaning of confidence, and doesn't involve blind belief.
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Faith
Aug 7, 2014 22:53:37 GMT 1
Post by csee on Aug 7, 2014 22:53:37 GMT 1
Is faith lead to suffering ? lets debate on this
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Faith
Aug 9, 2014 1:44:40 GMT 1
Post by Jeff H on Aug 9, 2014 1:44:40 GMT 1
I agree with spinynorman that Buddhist faith is better understood as confidence. However I think that all religions have a potential problem with “authoritarian orthodoxy” and those who are subject to blind faith simply have unwavering confidence in that orthodoxy.
For me the issue is that all religions are human institutions, subject to human foibles. Whatever “is written” has been written by people. Some of them are truly conveyors of the underlying truths, but others are simply fallible members of the religious hierarchy intentionally or unintentionally propagating their own, small ideas.
I believe Buddhism has a built-in safeguard with its “scientific method”, where we are admonished by Buddha not to take his word for anything. The teachings are working hypotheses, handed down via lineage transmissions by buddhas, bodhisattvas, and masters who have seen how reality actually works. We have to personally replicate whatever they tell us within our own experience.
I have only been studying Tibetan Buddhism in depth for 7 years but I have great confidence in both the principles I’ve learned and the teachers who have guided me. But I’m currently encountering a minor crisis of faith where I have to come to terms with aspects of Tibetan culture, such as oracles and spirits, which don’t seem to fit with the scientific method.
I need help getting over this hump. How have others dealt with this kind of thing?
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tamara
Senior Member
Posts: 178
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Faith
Aug 9, 2014 4:33:28 GMT 1
Post by tamara on Aug 9, 2014 4:33:28 GMT 1
Jeff wrote: ```But I’m currently encountering a minor crisis of faith where I have to come to terms with aspects of Tibetan culture, such as oracles and spirits, which don’t seem to fit with the scientific method.```
Everything is energy and due to karma some of it might harm us. If we want we can call this energy an `evil spirit`and so be it.
An oracle is able to contact this energy. I do not know if this is true in particular cases and I am not in the position to give a judgement.
If the holder of a particular Tradition (Tibetan or else) finds an oracle to be a skillful way to deal with the people who have faith in him, then I do not judge either. It is his decision to make and he faces the consequences (karma-wise).
Is it you, Jeff, Jeff H ? Good to see you here after quite some time.
Does you crisis of faith concern aspects of Tib. culture and its proponents or is it about Buddha`s teachings ? Perhaps you are just ready to leave the boat, that took you to get to the other shore, behind.
Tamara
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Faith
Aug 9, 2014 18:09:56 GMT 1
Post by Jeff H on Aug 9, 2014 18:09:56 GMT 1
Hi Tamara. About five years ago I was registered as “Nug” and signing my posts “Holloway”. I’ve been a longtime fan of Rudy’s website and forum, but I’ve been taking correspondence courses at Jamyang and I haven’t had time to keep up with the discussions here. However, I remember you well from those days and I appreciate your reply.
Perhaps the boat that has gotten me here is “intellectualism”. I’ve just finished Geshe Tashi Tsering’s 2½ year Lam Rim Chenmo course, where I had plenty of opportunity to think through a lot of Gelug concepts. What I’m calling a “crisis” is perhaps just having my attention drawn to another aspect of the training.
Here’s what happened. The moderator of the Lam Rim Chenmo course recommended me to be moderator of Geshe Tashi’s other course, Foundations of Buddhist Thought. However I was rejected because my first two years of Tibetan Buddhism (2007-8) were with NKT. I found that decision arbitrary and discriminatory. I expressed my concerns, and I also forwarded the entire email thread to Ven. Robina Courtin, whom I’ve considered my spiritual guide since 2008.
Her response was very emphatically that FPMT centers’ decisions to keep anything NKT at arm’s length actually protects HHDL’s samaya (a term I’m not familiar with). The point, she said (and I paraphrase loosely, in my own understanding), was that his oracle said tolerance for the spirit of Dorje Shugden would have far worse consequences in the future than the short term disharmony that the division causes.
I trust Ven. Robina – I have faith in her understanding and transmission of the lineage teachings. So her answer has brought me up short and makes me realize I have to look more directly at a whole area of Buddhism I can’t simply think through.
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Faith
Aug 9, 2014 20:05:43 GMT 1
Post by Will on Aug 9, 2014 20:05:43 GMT 1
Here’s what happened. The moderator of the Lam Rim Chenmo course recommended me to be moderator of Geshe Tashi’s other course, Foundations of Buddhist Thought. However I was rejected because my first two years of Tibetan Buddhism (2007-8) were with NKT. I found that decision arbitrary and discriminatory. I expressed my concerns, and I also forwarded the entire email thread to Ven. Robina Courtin, whom I’ve considered my spiritual guide since 2008. Her response was very emphatically that FPMT centers’ decisions to keep anything NKT at arm’s length actually protects HHDL’s samaya (a term I’m not familiar with). The point, she said (and I paraphrase loosely, in my own understanding), was that his oracle said tolerance for the spirit of Dorje Shugden would have far worse consequences in the future than the short term disharmony that the division causes. I trust Ven. Robina – I have faith in her understanding and transmission of the lineage teachings. So her answer has brought me up short and makes me realize I have to look more directly at a whole area of Buddhism I can’t simply think through. Jeff, While I think NKT is not a group to follow or be part of, the way you were treated seems not merely 'arbitrary' but lazy. All they had to do was ask you never to mention NKT or praise shugden or the leader(s) of NKT (or some such promise) and then if you agreed - let you teach.
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Faith
Aug 10, 2014 2:25:07 GMT 1
Post by Jeff H on Aug 10, 2014 2:25:07 GMT 1
That was my initial reaction, too, Will. And I wrote out my position in some detail for the moderator who said she’d show it to the decision-makers. However, after Ven. Robina’s response I am taking a deeper look at the whole thing.
It’s not just this one incident, which is really quite unimportant in itself. Take the quotes you opened this discussion with, Will. I have trouble with such declarative statements about the nature and benefits of faith. It isn’t that I don’t believe them, but it seems to me the content could be interchanged with any religious dogma. For example, my ex-wife has become a born-again Christian late in life, as I’ve become deeply involved in Buddhism. She is trying to inculcate our granddaughters with Christian material that is clearly intended to inspire a motivation to attain heaven by loving Jesus in the same way these quotes are intended to inspire realization of selflessness by taking refuge in the Three Jewels.
When I was a Christian myself I never quite saw how to get from such “pep-talks” to the ways and means of actually becoming a more loving and compassionate person. I believe that in Buddhism I can study, meditate on, and practice Dharma in order to very gradually gain actual techniques for becoming more giving, ethical, patient, diligent, focused, and insightful about how my mind can more usefully organize the world of my experiences.
The more I experience the practical value of Dharma, the more faith I have in those who have taught me how. Like Robina. But she is now telling me something much more like your quotes and I find myself at a loss to process what the lesson is.
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Faith
Aug 10, 2014 4:52:56 GMT 1
Post by Will on Aug 10, 2014 4:52:56 GMT 1
Jeff,
If you think you see the Avatamsaka quote as "intended to inspire realization of selflessness by taking refuge in the Three Jewels" - so be it. There are other ways to look at it. I would suggest that you not superimpose your view of Xtian motives on to the buddhadharma. That would confuse you, as has happened, it seems.
Ever pondered on Ashvaghosha's Awakening of Faith? It is a short, very deep shastra and presents a way to understand Mahayana and faith that is far beyond cheerleading.
EDIT: It just occurred to me Jeff; when you were in NKT, did you ardently practice shugden or perhaps only mechanically with little understanding? Perhaps some of that energy is still disturbing your mind and contributing to your 'crisis'?
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Faith
Aug 10, 2014 17:17:40 GMT 1
Post by Jeff H on Aug 10, 2014 17:17:40 GMT 1
Actually, Will, I’m just floundering here, trying to identify what my issue is – so thanks for probing, it’s what I need. I don’t mean to equate the Christian and Buddhist messages. I just think some texts in both traditions require a prior acceptance of the result before they are useful as a means of arriving at that same result. I like the way Buddhism starts exactly where each of us is and guides us gradually to the result by a process of personal, internal discoveries. I think my issue is that even such a step-by-step method eventually brings us to leaps of faith and I haven’t quite figured out what the leap is or how to distinguish it from blind faith.
Perhaps you are right about a Shugden influence. I like Tamara’s comment about negative energy and spirits. Robina attributes it to past karma ripening in this circumstance. I see it as some kind of pointer showing me a deficiency of understanding. That’s why I brought it here.
In NKT I had no instruction on or association with Shugden at all, except that they had a figure of him in the gompa. Once others in my class attended a retreat which must have been a Shugden empowerment. I remember someone saying, “Well, I now realize I need Dorje Shugden” (emphasis his).
I knew there was a controversy but my interest was the Dharma content. That’s when I started reading Rudy’s website to cross-check what I was learning from Geshe Kelsang’s texts and teachers. That’s also when I applied to Geshe Tashi’s Foundation of Buddhist Thought course. I have respect and gratitude for Geshe Kelsang because he introduced me to Tibetan Buddhism and gave me a solid framework. But I strongly favor FPMT and this incident does not change that.
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tamara
Senior Member
Posts: 178
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Faith
Aug 12, 2014 1:23:48 GMT 1
Post by tamara on Aug 12, 2014 1:23:48 GMT 1
Jeff H wrote: ```But she is now telling me something much more like your quotes and I find myself at a loss to process what the lesson is.```
Jeff, I feel you are in a special situation here. I do not know how I would react, probably with a lot of self-pity as in`how can this happen to me and why doesn`t anybody see my pure intentions`.
I love to read Budhism-related books. There is one book (lifestory of Milarepa) which I have put aside several times, not being able to get over the passage where Milarepa builds these towers and his teacher Marpa pulls them down again so that he has to re-build.
Now, that I am getting `older and hopefully wiser` I slowly, very slowly, start to see the sense it makes, but still everything in me revolts against such kind of lectures being given to a faithful student.
Perhaps the lesson is, to at some point leave the teacher-students issues behind and to become truly independent. Independent of one`s attachment to achieve one`s goals (building one, two or no tower, what does it matter, `where`s the problem` as they say here in Asia), independent about how a teacher, a whole institution in fact, is treating us. Independent of anything that annoys us.
I have heard quite a few stories of Ven.Robina rejecting a student, especially the overly clinging one and I can imagine that she knows what she does.
Jeff, I wish you good luck with this ultimate tasks of the tasks,
Tamara
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Faith
Aug 14, 2014 18:15:34 GMT 1
Post by Will on Aug 14, 2014 18:15:34 GMT 1
Avatamsaka Sutra chapter 12
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Faith
Aug 14, 2014 18:25:43 GMT 1
matt likes this
Post by spinynorman on Aug 14, 2014 18:25:43 GMT 1
I have only been studying Tibetan Buddhism in depth for 7 years but I have great confidence in both the principles I’ve learned and the teachers who have guided me. But I’m currently encountering a minor crisis of faith where I have to come to terms with aspects of Tibetan culture, such as oracles and spirits, which don’t seem to fit with the scientific method. I need help getting over this hump. How have others dealt with this kind of thing?
I've been practising in the Theravada tradition in recent years, and there is a lively debate about the relevance and validity of sutta descriptions of rebirth, kamma, supernormal powers, etc.
If in doubt I usually put these things to one side and continue with my daily practice. So for me faith isn't about believing or disbelieving, but having confidence in my daily practice, currently satipatthana and anapanasati.
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Faith
Aug 15, 2014 0:52:52 GMT 1
Post by bristollad on Aug 15, 2014 0:52:52 GMT 1
Dear Jeff, "I have respect and gratitude for Geshe Kelsang because he introduced me to Tibetan Buddhism and gave me a solid framework." I would guess that this is the problem that made them feel you might not be suitable - not the respect and gratitude, that is appropriate for any former teacher, but the solid framework of Tibetan Buddhism. As the NKT has developed, the basis of its teachings has warped and reshaped, in some cases by changes of emphasis, in others by changing the meaning and implications. Its these possible small errors of understanding that I suspect they were worried about. An example from buddhism-controversy-blog.com/2013/12/14/is-the-nkt-a-pure-lineage-of-tsongkhapa-the-problem-with-root-texts-within-the-nkt-study-program/From Shantideva's Bodhisattvacharyavatara ...in Chapter Eight, there is this discrepancy involving two important verses: In verses 97-98, the Tharpa translation reads as follows: 97. But why should I protect others If their suffering does me no harm? If we cherish only others, we find their suffering hard to bear; So we definitely need to protect them. 98. It is not a wrong conception to think That it will be I who experience the future suffering, Because it will not be another person who dies And yet another who is reborn. (p. 129) This is another very strange translation that misses Shantideva’s meaning completely. The Padmakara Translation Group (and all others, including GKG) provide an opposing meaning: 97. Since pains of others do no harm to me What reason do I have to shield myself? But why to guard against “my” future pain which Does no harm to this, my present “me”? 98. To think that “I will have to suffer it” In fact is but a false conception— In the present moment, “I” will perish; At another time, another will be born. (p. 124) GKG writes, ignoring the Tharpa translation: “As I said before, there is no reason for me to protect others from their misery. It causes me no harm. Then why do we work to eliminate the sicknesses of old age coming in the future or even the discomforts of tomorrow and the day after tomorrow? These future sufferings will do us no harm today. But if such misery is not prevented now I shall experience it in the future. This is a misconception. The self of this life will not experience the suffering of future lives.” (p.335).
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matt
Senior Member
Posts: 425
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Faith
Aug 15, 2014 6:23:37 GMT 1
Post by matt on Aug 15, 2014 6:23:37 GMT 1
These Rigpa View of the Day emails are often very timely with what we are discussing on this forum. I consider it an obvious example of synchronicity that they are. I just found this in my in box:
August 15
The successive existences in a series of rebirths are not like the pearls in a pearl necklace, held together by a string, the ‘soul,’ which passes through all the pearls; rather they are like dice piled one on top of the other. Each die is separate, but it supports the one above it, with which it is functionally connected. Between the dice there is no identity, but conditionality.
H. W. SCHUMANN THE HISTORICAL BUDDHA
Anyway, Jeff,. I don't know if there really were enlightened reasons for not letting you moderate. I wouldn't assume there were, but I do also have a lot of respect for Ven. Robina, and what she had to say is interesting. I have never equated faith with belief too much. I agree it can be confidence in the teacher and teachings, and this obviously grows with experience, but I really agree with what spinynorman said, too.
You know, letting go of anything takes faith, all the more so because we don't know what the outcome will be. Emptiness has been called the cloud of unknowing, and the kind of confidence we need to handle that usually arises spontaneously once conditions have ripened.
On the other hand I also appreciate Will's posts in this thread, and they make perfect sense to me. I understand it this way, because of their mastery of non duality Enlightened Beings are not obstructed by time and space, so our faith in them helps create conditions in our hearts and minds favorable to letting them help or influence us. But now we are talking understanding, and so are back to questions of belief.
I hope your minor crises of faith proves to be fruitful and not too depressing for you. Talk to us about it anytime you like. It is interesting to hear about your path.
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matt
Senior Member
Posts: 425
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Faith
Aug 15, 2014 21:25:45 GMT 1
Post by matt on Aug 15, 2014 21:25:45 GMT 1
Hi Jeff,
I wrote a song for you. It is a really lousy song. I hope you will find it amusing and not painful. It's called That old Shugden Taint
Poor Jeff H has that old Shugden Taint that old Shugden Taint that old Shugden Taint
He wants so bad to Mod-er-ate but he cain't Cause of that old Shugden Taint that old Shugden Taint
Oh, you can't rub it off you can't scrub it off that old Shugden Taint that old Shugden Taint
You can't wear it off you can't wash it off that old Shugden Taint that old Shugden Taint
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Faith
Aug 16, 2014 11:51:54 GMT 1
Post by spinynorman on Aug 16, 2014 11:51:54 GMT 1
98. To think that “I will have to suffer it” In fact is but a false conception— In the present moment, “I” will perish; At another time, another will be born. (p. 124) This looks like a way of talking about karma, and I think can be seen in terms of dependent arising. So by analogy we could say the "you" of tomorrow will arise in dependence of the you of today - it will be a different "you" but will still experience the consequences of actions carried out by the "you" of today.
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