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Post by Jeff H on Aug 22, 2014 20:40:19 GMT 1
In the Great Treatise, Tsongkhapa frequently illustrates what he considers the wrong path using the historical debate between Kamalasila and Ha-Shang. Ha-Shang advocated a path that sought to eliminate conceptuality from the start because all concepts are afflictions and obscurations.
Kamalasila set the predominant tone for future developments in Tibetan Buddhism by arguing that conception is the only tool at our disposal to ultimately rise above conception and attain peace. We must understand what is wrong first. Second we must understand the principles behind what is true.
We then develop these conceptual understandings through meditative reflection and worldly practice. By thoroughly understanding how conventional phenomena arise and interact we cultivate equanimity, love, and compassion for all beings. By thoroughly understanding that no phenomenon can exist without depending upon causes, parts, and, especially, conceptual labeling we cultivate wisdom. The joining of the two is a non-conceptual state which does not depend upon causes and conditions itself, but requires prior causes and conditions to remove the ignorance obscuring our ability to perceive the truth.
It sounds to me like you are advocating a path very similar to Ha-Shang’s. I follow Kamalasila. I’m an old man who came to Buddhism late. That debate has long since been resolved in my mind. I am much more intent on cultivating the Prasangika path, as I understand it.
I don’t think we attain Buddhist realizations by reducing our emotions and obscuring conventional distinctions. Bodhicitta is an intense urgency to overcome samsara because the suffering we see and feel is too terrible to bear. We willingly dive into the cesspool of our conceptual misunderstandings so that we can fully grasp their origins and negate them. As attachment decreases, love increases. As aversion decreases, compassion increases. As ignorance decreases we are fortified for the long journey to wisdom.
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Post by noessentialnature on Aug 22, 2014 23:44:08 GMT 1
Buddhism is the natural process freedom of attachment of knowledge and emotion by a process of realization, and without emotion and knowledge ...there is nothingness - The Buddha Non-attachment is different to freedom from attachment. Not clinging is different from not arising. To obsess over putting down, prevents properly picking up. Only picking up, our hands are soon full. Not in the smallest corner of the many worlds is there any nothingness. |
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Post by csee on Aug 23, 2014 1:20:25 GMT 1
In the Great Treatise, Tsongkhapa frequently illustrates what he considers the wrong path using the historical debate between Kamalasila and Ha-Shang. Ha-Shang advocated a path that sought to eliminate conceptuality from the start because all concepts are afflictions and obscurations. Kamalasila set the predominant tone for future developments in Tibetan Buddhism by arguing that conception is the only tool at our disposal to ultimately rise above conception and attain peace. We must understand what is wrong first. Second we must understand the principles behind what is true. We then develop these conceptual understandings through meditative reflection and worldly practice. By thoroughly understanding how conventional phenomena arise and interact we cultivate equanimity, love, and compassion for all beings. By thoroughly understanding that no phenomenon can exist without depending upon causes, parts, and, especially, conceptual labeling we cultivate wisdom. The joining of the two is a non-conceptual state which does not depend upon causes and conditions itself, but requires prior causes and conditions to remove the ignorance obscuring our ability to perceive the truth. Thanks for sharing this story . I am not trying to be anyone or limit my understanding by following any path .....my extreme fear of death since a boy had lead me realizing the two words said to be from Mr Siddharta " awake and emptiness " and I found peace in these words ......
Sorry in advance , awaken to emotion, I realized because of our knowledge , the way we were rise, our society , our education system , our livelihood had created a culture for human and I was dragged into this culture ......and this culture had created faith of who I am ......I realized I became the knowledge itself by this culture ....and attached to knowledge as my guide of determination for my action , the way I should think , goal etc .......This culture had created comparison of right verses wrong , true verses false , good verses bad ....and I realized human became confused by this culture in a pool of knowledge , struggling to "get out" but became more confused as they gain more knowledge ......
Dear Jeff H , awaken to emotion ...I realized my existence , cause of my existence , my emotion .....and I realized the separation of knowledge and emotion ........awaken to Buddhism , I realized beyond knowledge . I realized there is no right or wrong , no true or false , no good or bad ...........as any action / re-action , any happening is happen as it should happen as it is from a natural process of happening ......is only human culture trying to explain happening to fulfill their desire to know .........and determine / judging happening against their knowledge......this had cause human continue to develop emotion by gaining more and more knowledge ...and this has became a "joy" in human culture but in same time causing suffering of carrying the burden of emotion ...this path cause longer journey into self realization and suffering/joy is the nature of this path .........
It sounds to me like you are advocating a path very similar to Ha-Shang’s. I follow Kamalasila. I’m an old man who came to Buddhism late. That debate has long since been resolved in my mind. I am much more intent on cultivating the Prasangika path, as I understand it. I don’t think we attain Buddhist realizations by reducing our emotions and obscuring conventional distinctions. Bodhicitta is an intense urgency to overcome samsara because the suffering we see and feel is too terrible to bear. We willingly dive into the cesspool of our conceptual misunderstandings so that we can fully grasp their origins and negate them. As attachment decreases, love increases. As aversion decreases, compassion increases. As ignorance decreases we are fortified for the long journey to wisdom. I cant find reason to agree with you here ......as I currently realized that Buddhism is a natural process and regardless what you faith you cant get out from this process ...you can swim against current , can hide between the rock , can swim to various location but no matter what you do....you will always in a process back into your original condition ........so reducing emotion is not out of desire to reduce because such action will create more emotion ....awaken to Buddhism , all emotion regardless love or hate will naturally reduced .......one will have no special emotion for anyone or anything including to himself so he will give even his life to others because he seeing there is no others except he and his emotion ....this action is not out of emotion but is a condition of being less emotion ...so perhaps this action could be easily mistaken as kindness or love by human knowledge but is totally different thing ....
Buddhism is not meant to get out from suffering .......awaken to Buddhism one will realize suffering or joy is same , one will be in a condition of mind not affected by confusion ...one will be without "suffering or joy"...but in condition that changes every moment without influence by knowledge or confusion
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Post by csee on Aug 23, 2014 1:34:31 GMT 1
Dear Jeff H, you said "Non-attachment is different to freedom from attachment. Not clinging is different from not arising. To obsess over putting down, prevents properly picking up. Only picking up, our hands are soon full. Not in the smallest corner of the many worlds is there any nothingness." un-quote
In my current understanding , non-attachment and freedom of attachment is just a reflection being in a condition of less emotion ...is part of a natural process and awaken to Buddhism , one will realized the answer without desire to question
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Post by Jeff H on Aug 23, 2014 15:14:19 GMT 1
Csee, my friend, I think it's time we agree to disagree, but I'm glad we were able to share our views. As far as I can tell from what we've shared, our goals are similar but our methods are quite different. It sounds like you have found a path that works well for you and I believe I have done the same.
Regarding the quotes above, my views are these:
1. Perhaps cultures define, or at least practice and enforce, morality largely according to the principles of what Buddhism calls ignorance. But Buddhism explains virtue and non-virtue in terms of that which brings peace versus that which brings suffering, then teaches how to discern the two in order to increase the causes of virtue and decrease the causes of non-virtue.
2. A "natural process of happening" sounds like going with the flow, which to me is a process of allowing our long established, negative karma to dictate our every move. Continuing in that manner can never lead to peace.
3. This statement just plain puzzles me. I've never heard that expressed.
I agree that buddha nature is a natural state, but I don't believe that attaining it is a natural process. I believe that the long-standing, ongoing habits of negative karma create a situation where effort is required to row upstream against the current of ignorant concepts, but the boat and the oars are themselves concepts. As Tamera said in another thread, at a certain point we leave the boat behind, but for now I need the boat; I need the concepts, the training, and the effort.
I am very glad that you have found a natural process to arrive at buddha nature and I wish you great success in your path. Thanks for sharing it.
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Post by csee on Aug 23, 2014 19:46:04 GMT 1
Csee, my friend, I think it's time we agree to disagree, but I'm glad we were able to share our views. As far as I can tell from what we've shared, our goals are similar but our methods are quite different. It sounds like you have found a path that works well for you and I believe I have done the same. Regarding the quotes above, my views are these: 1. Perhaps cultures define, or at least practice and enforce, morality largely according to the principles of what Buddhism calls ignorance. But Buddhism explains virtue and non-virtue in terms of that which brings peace versus that which brings suffering, then teaches how to discern the two in order to increase the causes of virtue and decrease the causes of non-virtue. 2. A "natural process of happening" sounds like going with the flow, which to me is a process of allowing our long established, negative karma to dictate our every move. Continuing in that manner can never lead to peace. 3. This statement just plain puzzles me. I've never heard that expressed. I agree that buddha nature is a natural state, but I don't believe that attaining it is a natural process. I believe that the long-standing, ongoing habits of negative karma create a situation where effort is required to row upstream against the current of ignorant concepts, but the boat and the oars are themselves concepts. As Tamera said in another thread, at a certain point we leave the boat behind, but for now I need the boat; I need the concepts, the training, and the effort. I am very glad that you have found a natural process to arrive at buddha nature and I wish you great success in your path. Thanks for sharing it. |
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Post by noessentialnature on Aug 23, 2014 20:02:28 GMT 1
Dear Jeff H, you said "Non-attachment is different to freedom from attachment. Not clinging is different from not arising. To obsess over putting down, prevents properly picking up. Only picking up, our hands are soon full. Not in the smallest corner of the many worlds is there any nothingness." un-quote
In my current understanding , non-attachment and freedom of attachment is just a reflection being in a condition of less emotion ...is part of a natural process and awaken to Buddhism , one will realized the answer without desire to question Here you use 'of', there you use 'from'. You seem intent on not noticing the difference. Equanimity can be, or become, a habit. Or not. Both developments can occur without intervention, so could be called natural. Buddhism pursued for selfish reasons, like fear of death, will not lead to a full or natural or inevitable unfolding of its aims - waking up, ending suffering. Only bodhicitta, the spontaneous desire to save all beings from suffering and fear can lead to such an unfolding. |
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Post by csee on Aug 24, 2014 3:34:54 GMT 1
Dear Jeff H, you said "Non-attachment is different to freedom from attachment. Not clinging is different from not arising. To obsess over putting down, prevents properly picking up. Only picking up, our hands are soon full. Not in the smallest corner of the many worlds is there any nothingness." un-quote
In my current understanding , non-attachment and freedom of attachment is just a reflection being in a condition of less emotion ...is part of a natural process and awaken to Buddhism , one will realized the answer without desire to question Here you use 'of', there you use 'from'. You seem intent on not noticing the difference. Dear sir , sorry in advance , I think is better you ask me if you do not understand what I am trying to say ..this is a discussion or debate and you are free to ask me but please do give me a chance to explain .....dont judge by your knowledge or emotion .Equanimity can be, or become, a habit. Or not. Both developments can occur without intervention, so could be called natural. Buddhism pursued for selfish reasons, like fear of death, will not lead to a full or natural or inevitable unfolding of its aims - waking up, ending suffering. Only bodhicitta, the spontaneous desire to save all beings from suffering and fear can lead to such an unfolding. Is this your " faith" ? or your current understanding ? To me as what I realized , Buddhism is a continues process that never stop until nothingness and each moment in "time" or in life each existence are in different condition ...I am in different condition and as I writing now , each moment I "birth and die , die and birth" into different condition , different mind ......I realized in human culture , human trying to hold on to their mind by creating faith , faith on their experiences , knowledge , ego , desire etc ....and this culture had dragged human into circle of emotion , creating more and more emotion and caused human to travel into longer journey .........
As one awaken to emotion , one will realized the separation of culture and emotion ......and realizing faith is suffering sometime even joy ...realizing that one emotion of holding on faith and one will free own emotion from creating faith ..............
In my current understanding , Buddhism is not driven by motive , not pursue of any intention or goal ......is a process of what happens as it should be happen as it is in a process of happening .......it would takes realization to aware of this , knowledge will just confusing .......do you mind we discuss on a particular topic ? If you agree we can start asking each other opinion ...you decide what or how to discuss / debate if you dont mind |
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Post by noessentialnature on Aug 25, 2014 23:25:12 GMT 1
Is this your " faith" ? or your current understanding ?
It follows from the meanings of the words in a Buddhist context, and conventional interpretation of the core statements of Buddhism. To me as what I realized , Buddhism is a continues process that never stop until nothingness As has been said several times, nothingness is a problematic term. Search for 'Buddhism' + 'nothingness' and you will see. You discourage further conversation by ignoring this. and each moment in "time" or in life each existence are in different condition ...I am in different condition and as I writing now , each moment I "birth and die , die and birth" into different condition , different mind ......I realized in human culture , human trying to hold on to their mind by creating faith , faith on their experiences , knowledge , ego , desire etc ....and this culture had dragged human into circle of emotion , creating more and more emotion and caused human to travel into longer journey ......... As one awaken to emotion , one will realized the separation of culture and emotion ......and realizing faith is suffering sometime even joy ...realizing that one emotion of holding on faith and one will free own emotion from creating faith .............. In my current understanding , Buddhism is not driven by motive , not pursue of any intention or goal ......is a process of what happens as it should be happen as it is in a process of happening .......it would takes realization to aware of this , knowledge will just confusing .......do you mind we discuss on a particular topic ? If you agree we can start asking each other opinion ...you decide what or how to discuss / debate if you dont mind You seem to be stating here that both faith and emotion are to be avoided. Look up the Wikipeda article on 'Faith in Buddhism' to see a summary on the Buddhas many statements about how essential faith is to the practice of the path he set out. Consider the Buddhas own motivations as developed by the profoundly emotional experience he had as a young prince encountering ageing sickness and death. Or the Four Sublime States, which are emotions or how we relate to them. Or the a Four Divine Abidings. How do you account for these? Do you mind, if I ask in return, if you if you have tried attending any Buddhist groups? What kind of meditation practice do you have? What Buddhist authors, or literature of Buddhist traditions, has inspired you? What is your personal practice, do you meditate? |
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Post by csee on Aug 26, 2014 1:37:15 GMT 1
Is this your " faith" ? or your current understanding ?
It follows from the meanings of the words in a Buddhist context, and conventional interpretation of the core statements of Buddhism. So , seems to me you are basing on knowledge ............To me as what I realized , Buddhism is a continues process that never stop until nothingness As has been said several times, nothingness is a problematic term. Search for 'Buddhism' + 'nothingness' and you will see. You discourage further conversation by ignoring this. Dear sir , I get your point .....your are referring " nothingness" base on Buddhism text for the meaning of the word but I am just using that word as an English word for being nothing ........I have said to you that I hope our conversation is base on simple language not on terminology ......so if you referring to text for the meaning , yes I am 100% wrong ..awaken to emotion , one will realize the separation of knowledge and emotion ...one will be clear on what is knowledge , what had knowledge influenced one life ....one will perhaps realized one have became the knowledge itself
and each moment in "time" or in life each existence are in different condition ...I am in different condition and as I writing now , each moment I "birth and die , die and birth" into different condition , different mind ......I realized in human culture , human trying to hold on to their mind by creating faith , faith on their experiences , knowledge , ego , desire etc ....and this culture had dragged human into circle of emotion , creating more and more emotion and caused human to travel into longer journey ......... As one awaken to emotion , one will realized the separation of culture and emotion ......and realizing faith is suffering sometime even joy ...realizing that one emotion of holding on faith and one will free own emotion from creating faith .............. In my current understanding , Buddhism is not driven by motive , not pursue of any intention or goal ......is a process of what happens as it should be happen as it is in a process of happening .......it would takes realization to aware of this , knowledge will just confusing .......do you mind we discuss on a particular topic ? If you agree we can start asking each other opinion ...you decide what or how to discuss / debate if you dont mind You seem to be stating here that both faith and emotion are to be avoided. No quite the same as what I meant ........In my current understanding , as one awaken to Buddhism , one will be in condition of a process of discovering , experiencing new awareness constantly , constantly in awake state ...learning will be a condition not out of desire to learn , one will always in a condition readiness to learn / change ......so such condition is no faith , no emotion to avoid or to intent to do..........Look up the Wikipeda article on 'Faith in Buddhism' to see a summary on the Buddhas many statements about how essential faith is to the practice of the path he set out. Consider the Buddhas own motivations as developed by the profoundly emotional experience he had as a young prince encountering ageing sickness and death. Or the Four Sublime States, which are emotions or how we relate to them. Or the a Four Divine Abidings. How do you account for these? Dear sir , as I have said if you refer to knowledge to understand Buddhism , Buddhism will always be something that you know , you will know something that known wishing to know something that already known......it will be part of your culture .....in my current understanding of Buddhism , the story of Siddharta , his path , even his direct true words is just an information , a gossip for your own journey .......Buddhism is all about you , is you discovering your existence , experiencing the cause of your existence and realizing your nature .......Buddhism is the process and awaken to this process , you will be in peace .......
Sorry in advance , seems to me your understanding of Buddhism is very much influenced by knowledge if such ...you are always suffering of " joy" carrying the burden of knowledge ......Buddhism is realization , not determination .....awaken to emotion , you will realized your emotion and the answer without questioning ..........
Do you mind, if I ask in return, if you if you have tried attending any Buddhist groups? Yes , but I learnt that their approach / teaching / concept is totally way too different from mine ....but I have tried to ask but seems there is no room to question ...... What kind of meditation practice do you have? What Buddhist authors, or literature of Buddhist traditions, has inspired you? No .........I just read about Siddharta's story but I never read text about his teaching as It involve many terminology What is your personal practice, do you meditate? Dear sir , I do not " practice" Buddhism ...I do not sitting in position and meditate like I have seen many people do so.....As I have said , I realized my emotion and from Siddharta's two words ( I do not care whether is his or not ) " awake and emptiness " ....I found peace .......I can tell you more about my life if you interested ...... |
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Post by Jeff H on Aug 26, 2014 15:01:22 GMT 1
Csee, I really like your persistence  . You say that Buddhist groups you've approached don't accept your questioning but, at least in this case, you don’t seem to be asking questions. You are coming to us with absolute certainty about a "natural, personal process" you call "Buddhism". But those of us who have responded don’t recognize it as any form of legitimate Buddhism. What is the nature of this ongoing, emotional reaction to your two words, "awake" and "emptiness"? Are you carried away with the sound of the words, like a mantra? I’ve heard "mantra" translated as "mind protector", but if that is all you have I think it only feels protective because it stops you from actually thinking. That is not like what Buddhism calls "refuge", which is protection derived by diving into the middle of our weaknesses to understand and combat them. Do those two words have meanings for you? If so then they are the terminology of your private religion. Do you consider how they apply to your life and your actions? Then that is the knowledge that informs your private religion. Some of us have expressed impatience with your insistence that what you describe is actually Buddhism. But the fact remains you continue to press us and we continue to respond. Perhaps that means you are asking for something and we want to give something, but there doesn’t seem to be any common ground. I think it's fair to say we are not going to join your religion because, despite the wide range of specific beliefs and practices in this forum, most of us agree that Buddha provided profound guidance which requires effort to be realized in our individual lives. If your “natural process” works for you, may I ask, what are you seeking in this forum? |
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Post by csee on Aug 26, 2014 23:19:49 GMT 1
Csee, I really like your persistence . You say that Buddhist groups you've approached don't accept your questioning but, at least in this case, you don’t seem to be asking questions. You are coming to us with absolute certainty about a "natural, personal process" you call "Buddhism". But those of us who have responded don’t recognize it as any form of legitimate Buddhism. I have no reason to agree with you that my understanding is a " absolute certainty" ...is just my "current understanding" as I always mentioned . I realized that awaken to own emotion , learning is not resulted from desire to learn but is in a condition of readiness to change .....I am here to challenge my own view by debating with others
What is the nature of this ongoing, emotional reaction to your two words, "awake" and "emptiness"? Are you carried away with the sound of the words, like a mantra? I’ve heard "mantra" translated as "mind protector", but if that is all you have I think it only feels protective because it stops you from actually thinking. That is not like what Buddhism calls "refuge", which is protection derived by diving into the middle of our weaknesses to understand and combat them. In my current understanding , Buddhism is realization ...is something not planned , not created by any intention or from a goal ....is you realizing your nature and your existence ....so is not something out of thinking ...one do not think about Buddhism but ......realizing it because Buddhism is beyond knowledge so one will never know Buddhism .......how could we think on something that is not knowledge ? I realized that by being "awake" , awake from influenced by knowledge , awake from attachment of emotion of pride , ego , fear , love , desire etc , awake from influenced of culture .....one will be conditioned to aware , realize , accept and continue to aware .......and further into this path one will realize emotion and realizing the separation of knowledge and emotion ...one will realizing separation of emotion and a condition freedom of emotion ....such condition by word is best described as " emptiness"...... Do those two words have meanings for you? If so then they are the terminology of your private religion. Do you consider how they apply to your life and your actions? Then that is the knowledge that informs your private religion. My past experience and extreme fear of death had lead me into realization of emotion .....and I found the meaning of these two words by my realization , is never something I planned .......is never something I hold on to ...is something I realized it so dear sir , Buddhism to me is never a religion because it is not involving any faith or beliefs ...........and I had explained it and I hope you not let your self confused Some of us have expressed impatience with your insistence that what you describe is actually Buddhism. But the fact remains you continue to press us and we continue to respond. Perhaps that means you are asking for something and we want to give something, but there doesn’t seem to be any common ground. I think it's fair to say we are not going to join your religion because, despite the wide range of specific beliefs and practices in this forum, most of us agree that Buddha provided profound guidance which requires effort to be realized in our individual lives. Dear sir , is never my intention to ask something from you .......I am here learning and by debating like now I am learning . If one in condition of learning , one will learned not only from others but from own self ....so I am indeed learnt here .....and by sharing views we do not need a common ground because Buddhism to me is not isolated ...........Buddhism is realization and is not determination of who is right or wrong ......If your “natural process” works for you, may I ask, what are you seeking in this forum? I guess you all still very far from understanding me ...and is common happening to me .....you see , Buddhism to me is a process that never stopped in my lifetime so is something constantly moving .....so one could never stopped at any level of awareness and say " look I am already in full awareness and completely understand"......perhaps that is only happen in human culture ..........dear sir , I am here to challenge "my" view and I am always challenging "my" view because I never owned any view......I hope you could understand me |
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Post by noessentialnature on Aug 26, 2014 23:39:27 GMT 1
No .........I just read about Siddharta's story but I never read text about his teaching as It involve many terminology What is your personal practice, do you meditate? Dear sir , I do not " practice" Buddhism ...I do not sitting in position and meditate like I have seen many people do so.....As I have said , I realized my emotion and from Siddharta's two words ( I do not care whether is his or not ) " awake and emptiness " ....I found peace .......I can tell you more about my life if you interested ...... [/quote] It sounds to me like you are in a hurry to get rid of the raft before you have even got your feet wet. |
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Post by csee on Aug 27, 2014 1:32:30 GMT 1
No .........I just read about Siddharta's story but I never read text about his teaching as It involve many terminology What is your personal practice, do you meditate? Dear sir , I do not " practice" Buddhism ...I do not sitting in position and meditate like I have seen many people do so.....As I have said , I realized my emotion and from Siddharta's two words ( I do not care whether is his or not ) " awake and emptiness " ....I found peace .......I can tell you more about my life if you interested ...... It sounds to me like you are in a hurry to get rid of the raft before you have even got your feet wet.[/quote] How can I " get rid of the raft" if I never even " on the raft"? ........I learnt that many people trying to learn Buddhism with so many ways , some go for a teacher and created a " teacher/student relationship" , some read tons of books , some meditate etc ...sorry in advance I cant find any reason to agree how could Buddhism be learned....even how could anyone have any reason to teach Buddhism ......
I currently realized Buddhism is realization of own existence and realizing that emotion is cause of existence .....as one awaken to this path , one emotion will be gradually reduced so all desire / love / fear / worry / hate etc will gradually decreases ......so if one created emotion say have desire " to learn" or " to have intention for something" , this will lead into creation of more emotion ...and this will caused longer journey .......just like if you in a river , you can swim away from the sea , you can stay holding on something in the river but you can never get out from the river ...you regardless how long it takes , regardless what you do , you will end up in the sea .........so if you swimming hard against the current , you can only suffer of fatigue but still you can never get out from the river ...no matter how you resist , you can only suffer and yet sooner or later you will end up in the sea ...but if you created intention to go to the sea and you swim as hard as fast as you can ...still you can only suffer of fatigue because there is no sea ..........the sea is always is you..........Buddhism is realization not determination . |
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Post by Jeff H on Aug 27, 2014 11:56:26 GMT 1
Good idea, Csee. Help me understand.
1. Why do you call this Buddhism?
2. Do you believe that Buddha gave teachings? If so, why would he have done that?
3. Is your realization different than "fatalism"? Where fatalists say, "whatever happens is just the way it is, and nothing I can do or think makes any difference." Except that you say if we think, act, or strive the process (of what?) somehow takes longer.
4. How does a person come by such a current understanding? Is there any possibility of helping others attain this realization?
5. Is there any benefit to realizing that your life is carried on the current of a river toward a sea that doesn't exist? (Did I get your metaphor right?)
6. You say you want to learn. What is there to learn within your realization and how would it make a difference?
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Post by csee on Aug 27, 2014 15:45:23 GMT 1
Good idea, Csee. Help me understand. 1. Why do you call this Buddhism? Sorry in advance if I mistaken your reason for asking this question ...after about 8 years communicating in internet , I learnt that many people think that I cannot
use the word " Buddhism" in explaining my understanding because it is very different from what they have learnt ......is not same as what " Buddhism" they learn
from text , teachers etc .......Dear Sir , in my current understanding , Buddhism is never limited to what you learnt from text , or "teaching" of any known
teachers...and is never confined to knowledge or human culture ...so if one limits their understanding of Buddhism based on text , Buddhism will always be something you know and becoming a human culture ........Dear sir , in my current understanding whatever one have learnt from text or any teaching of any teacher including direct words of Siddharta .....is all just a tiny sand in the ocean ....Buddhism is not knowledge , is much-much more beyond knowledge, is never something we could ever know .....so if you really interested to understand why I attributed my realization as " Buddhism"....I guess is best you continue debate with me and perhaps you will discover new awareness, new understanding of " Buddhism" same as what I am experiencing even now .......... 2. Do you believe that Buddha gave teachings? If so, why would he have done that? Awaken to emotion , one will realized separation of knowledge and emotion .......so whether Siddharta is a women or man , whether he "teach" intentionally or just being a reporter , reports on his understanding is never my interest as is just a gossip ........no one could ever know , even his wife could never knows ......3. Is your realization different than "fatalism"? Where fatalists say, "whatever happens is just the way it is, and nothing I can do or think makes any difference. Currently I realized , everything happens as it should be happen as it is from a process of happening ....so whatever I do or whatever I do not do is all part of the
process ...so there will be " no difference" because awaken to Buddhism , one will realized that comparison is only in knowledge , in human culture .....let me put it
in a close example :-
If I want to bake a cake , if I put 1 cup of sugar , it will taste as I like it ...but if I put 10 cup of sugar , it will taste too sweet and I do not like it ...in human culture , there is a different because of quantity of the sugar and the taste ....awaken to Buddhism , one will realized that thing happens as it should happen as it is from a process of happening and it is natural....so the 10 cup sugar cake is no comparison to 1 cup sugar cake because both are not related ........both taste as what it should taste as it was in a process leading to how it taste
I can explain further if you interested ......
" Except that you say if we think, act, or strive the process (of what?) somehow takes longer. I currently realized that as one awaken to emotion , awaken to Buddhism , one will always in condition of readiness to change without any resistance of defending faith or ego ...so each moment in one journey known as life , one will always in different condition .........and as one travel further , one attachment of emotion will be gradually reduced ...this reduction of emotion is not from one desire to reduce but from a process of realization ........so if one created emotion " to reduce emotion" this will lead into creation of more emotion ...and one will travel into longer journey into realization of the emotion itself ......If you interested I could always explain further on this ......4. How does a person come by such a current understanding? Awaken to emotion , one will realized that everything is same , I am same as any human ,any animal , any plant , viruses , rock , dust , pen , cup etc ....so how to compare "current understanding" with others if one see" no others"?......how do you show something on a map if that something is always moving ? How can I show to people what I have if I do not have anything ? ......I realized by being " awake" one is ready to aware , and realize and accept and continue to aware ..is a continue process , constantly moving .............
Is there any possibility of helping others attain this realization?
For years I have ask many teacher of what is their reason of teaching others ....but no one care to debate with me ......because in my current understanding , I cant find any reason how could it be possible to teach Buddhism ....how could one teach something that is not knowledge ? ......and if one awaken to emotion , one will always in condition of learning from others or own emotion , so one realized that by having intention to teach it will lead to creation of more emotion ...and this will lead to more suffering or joy ......so in short awaken to Buddhism , one will have no intention to teach because one realized " teaching" is causing suffering......
5. Is there any benefit to realizing that your life is carried on the current of a river toward a sea that doesn't exist? (Did I get your metaphor right?) No relevant .........awaken to emotion , one will realized existence , cause of existence , the journey known as life ......is no benefit or not ....is like you found your
own wallet , is always yours .......
6. You say you want to learn. What is there to learn within your realization and how would it make a difference? Realization is not something we could plan so I did not plan what to learn but awaken to Buddhism , I realized everything is great source of discovery of emotion so learning is not out of desire to search for something different to experience but learning is a condition of readiness ........
If I never answer you correctly please let me know , I will explain further ..... |
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Post by Jeff H on Aug 27, 2014 19:24:05 GMT 1
So, Csee, for 8 years you’ve presented your current understanding to Buddhists who all tell you that it isn’t Buddhism. You say that it doesn’t rely on what a known teacher (Buddha) said, so you can call whatever you feel “Buddhism”.
Buddha spent 45 years teaching how to discern the difference between the causes of suffering and peace. Yes, in the end we must transcend all the bonds of culture and conceptuality, but I choose the path of knowledge because I know the law of cause and effect works.
“Awake” summarizes his first two noble truths and “emptiness” summarizes the last two. We awaken to the fact that our lives are unsatisfactory because causes and conditions make us inevitably prone to dissatisfaction. But emptiness means that nothing exists apart from our conscious participation in it and we can influence the causes of our own experiences.
Buddha taught how to recognize our errors of perception and conception. With that knowledge we can prepare our minds to instinctively choose causes for virtue over non-virtue in potentially negative conditions, even before a conscious thought forms. Over time, those choices create a path of abandoning ignorance that causes suffering, in favor of wisdom that results in universal love, compassion, and peace.
Buddha taught that such a state is beyond cause and effect, but it can only be attained through a process of causally eliminating the reasons we suffer. We can’t simply will ourselves there.
If you have attained that state without effort, I applaud you. But I don’t believe that is the case. Yes, the path of knowledge is eons long, but it yields immediate positive results all along the way. I can see how Buddha’s way can lead there, but, sadly, I cannot see any value in what you call Buddhism.
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Post by csee on Aug 28, 2014 2:11:08 GMT 1
So, Csee, for 8 years you’ve presented your current understanding to Buddhists who all tell you that it isn’t Buddhism. You say that it doesn’t rely on what a known teacher (Buddha) said, so you can call whatever you feel “Buddhism”. Buddha spent 45 years teaching how to discern the difference between the causes of suffering and peace. Yes, in the end we must transcend all the bonds of culture and conceptuality, but I choose the path of knowledge because I know the law of cause and effect works. Dear Jeff H, I am now in discussion with Jeff H .....not books , not what Jeff H knows from books but Jeff H's reasons of choosing that path ......I am here to explore Jeff H understanding not Jeff H knowledge ...so please introduce me to Jeff H...not the book that he holding ....can you share your reason for saying "I know the law of cause and effect works." ?
“Awake” summarizes his first two noble truths and “emptiness” summarizes the last two. We awaken to the fact that our lives are unsatisfactory because causes and conditions make us inevitably prone to dissatisfaction. Yes perhaps I could understand this as a person ..a human living in society of culture , there are conditions make one satisfy and there are reasons to be unsatisfied.....and that is my current life , I still have expectation , greed , ego , desire , hopes , worry , fear , demand , goals , love etc .........still have special emotion for selected person / materials etc ......but !!!!!.....
in Buddhism, I realized that all suffering or joy is all in my mind , is all emotion that I hold on.....and I realized the separation of the knowledge and emotion ..and realized my confusion but still I am currently still very much attached to emotion ...that is the reason I am here , to learn as I understand that Buddhism is a process and I always in this process and learning is part of the process ......awaken to Buddhism , there is no reasons to be satisfy or unsatisfied as each condition is all in a process without comparison , in a natural process known to me as " Buddhism"
But emptiness means that nothing exists apart from our conscious participation in it and we can influence the causes of our own experiences. Please explain further perhaps by giving an example in order for me to understand before I could share my views .Buddha taught how to recognize our errors of perception and conception. With that knowledge we can prepare our minds to instinctively choose causes for virtue over non-virtue in potentially negative conditions, even before a conscious thought forms. Over time, those choices create a path of abandoning ignorance that causes suffering, in favor of wisdom that results in universal love, compassion, and peace.Buddha taught that such a state is beyond cause and effect, but it can only be attained through a process of causally eliminating the reasons we suffer. We can’t simply will ourselves there. So are you saying that with Buddha words as what interpreted by others had caused you shaped your path ? Have you consider other interpretation on the same words beside what written or what being said by your teacher ? Do you ever consider that perhaps there are others view / other meaning on the same words ?
We can discuss / debate on my understanding against your knowledge on a same word and we could learn from each other
If you have attained that state without effort, I applaud you. But I don’t believe that is the case. Yes, the path of knowledge is eons long, but it yields immediate positive results all along the way. I can see how Buddha’s way can lead there, but, sadly, I cannot see any value in what you call Buddhism. Dear sir , sorry in advance , I never have any intention to influence you into my understanding ...to me we have a huge differences of understanding Buddhism , that is great for my learning process........so far , I had answer all your question and I did learn from your question ....I hope you continue debate with me |
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Post by Jeff H on Aug 28, 2014 14:19:32 GMT 1
I, too, am enjoying our discussion, Csee.
Buddha said not to take his word for anything. Yet I cannot realize what Buddha knew and experienced on my own. It works a bit like science: a scientist postulates a theory through research and experiments; he documents his work; then other scientists challenge it by trying to replicate it.
It's not about mouthing the words of dead teachers; it's personal re-discovery that leads to new understandings for each generation striving to work it out for themselves.
Buddhist teachings provide necessary guidance because the ignorance with which we distort the world is so deeply ingrained we can't see it unless someone shows us. But the readiness to learn and the learning itself occur within each individual alone.
I start with "cause and effect" because I can see it clearly. If I practice the piano every day for years, I will make beautiful music. If I practice getting angry every day I will fill my life with strife. Buddha says, "Try applying equanimity towards others every day because it will fill your life and theirs with love."
What I mean about emptiness and influencing the causes of our experiences is exactly what you say: "I realized that all suffering or joy is all in my mind". The world is out there, but the suffering and joy are in here; we superimpose them on the conditions of our lives and we can change that.
Emptiness is not nothing. It is the ultimate condition of existence which makes the reality we experience possible. It is the reason change is possible. Our ignorance is to believe that things exist from their own side, completely independent of the influence of our minds. If things existed that way there could be no change. This is the theory I’m testing.
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Post by csee on Aug 29, 2014 2:31:40 GMT 1
I, too, am enjoying our discussion, Csee. Buddha said not to take his word for anything. Yet I cannot realize what Buddha knew and experienced on my own. It works a bit like science: a scientist postulates a theory through research and experiments; he documents his work; then other scientists challenge it by trying to replicate it. Perhaps by attachment on emotion of being "cannot" you had created desire to be " can" by learning and created desire to learn makes you swim faster and harder to the sea ...you will suffer of fatigue because there is no sea ....Buddhism in my current understanding is something that you will realized if you are in condition of being awake to aware ......but the condition is never the cause but just a factor of realization .......in short , if one rely on others , having faith on something , the journey into self realization will be longer ..........
It's not about mouthing the words of dead teachers; it's personal re-discovery that leads to new understandings for each generation striving to work it out for themselves. Buddhist teachings provide necessary guidance because the ignorance with which we distort the world is so deeply ingrained we can't see it unless someone shows us. But the readiness to learn and the learning itself occur within each individual alone. In my current understanding , all those text , all so call teaching regardless their nature is all a great source of learning same as countless sources........in my current understanding of Buddhism , Dalai Lama words is same as Osama action of killing thousand of people , both are same great source of learning .......all this happenings , teaching , information is just a tiny part of Buddhism...just like a piece of sand in the ocean .....if one shaped Buddhism into their knowledge , Buddhism will always be a knowledge , something that we know and always be something they already known ........if Obama dressed up as a fat lady , make-up like a lady ...he will looks like a quite pretty , not sexy lady........because he shaped into his choice ......I start with "cause and effect" because I can see it clearly. If I practice the piano every day for years, I will make beautiful music. If I practice getting angry every day I will fill my life with strife. Buddha says, "Try applying equanimity towards others every day because it will fill your life and theirs with love." That is just knowledge .....Siddharta provide great source of knowledge and knowledge is just a tiny part of Buddhism ...a coach can only provide tools , information , knowledge for you to run faster but is always your will , your energy , your emotion take you cross the line .......but if you just sit down listening to your coach words , you will never cross the line because you not even start running ........in my current understanding , human limits within own culture by own ego , living in a culture of knowledge ......and they get confused within own culture .......the " cause and effect" is natural happenings and why you have to stop your journey if you saw an accident on the road ?
Picture this..if you are cooking but in the same time you watch your neighbor cooking and concentrate on what he cook ....what happen to you food ? my version of the quote as you mentioned above is just an information ...a reporter giving you information on the weather ...is you to realize it not trying to live in it .....
Buddhism is realization on you , your existence and all others happenings is just a great source in this process for your realization .......I will explain further if you interested .What I mean about emptiness and influencing the causes of our experiences is exactly what you say: "I realized that all suffering or joy is all in my mind". The world is out there, but the suffering and joy are in here; we superimpose them on the conditions of our lives and we can change that. Perhaps that is not the same as my understanding......What I meant was awaken to emotion , one will realized that all suffering or joy is just all in mind ...as the mind influenced by knowledge of what is suffering and what is joy .....so awaken to this , one will realized that suffering or joy is same ...is all just emotion but divided by human culture into various condition ...is always human trying to explain their experience and get confused on their own knowledge .......as I have said Buddhism is realization not determination .......
Emptiness is not nothing. It is the ultimate condition of existence which makes the reality we experience possible. It is the reason change is possible. Our ignorance is to believe that things exist from their own side, completely independent of the influence of our minds. If things existed that way there could be no change. This is the theory I’m testing. As I realized , water in a cup ...a cup is empty and no cup or water ........water is emotion , cup is emptiness and without water or cup is nothingness ........ |
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