brian
Senior Member
Posts: 83
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Post by brian on May 11, 2013 9:05:45 GMT 1
"One of the mysteries of the Bible has always been where Jesus was during his twenties. There is a huge gap in the biography from puberty until about three years before the crucifixion. The simplest inference is that he was working as a carpenter with his father and that nothing remarkable happened to him during this period.
One rumor that has circulated for years has been that Jesus went to India during this time. There were well-established trade routes, so it would not be impossible. If Alexander the Great got there several centuries earlier, why not Jesus?
In the late nineteenth century a Russian, Nicolas Notovitch, published a travelogue of a trip through India, into Kashmir, eventually reaching Ladakh in Tibet. A lama informs him that Jesus is revered as a Boddhisattva, under the name Issa, by a splinter sect of the Tibetan Buddhists. While Notovitch is convalescing from a broken leg, an ancient manuscript is read to him about Issa. This tells of Jesus trekking to India to study the Vedas and Buddhism. Jesus stirs up a caste war against the Brahmins and has to leave India. Then Jesus returns home, stopping off briefly in Persia, where he preaches against Zoroastrianism. This account was supposed to have been written shortly after Jesus' death.
Of course, this caused quite a stir. Max Müller sent a letter to the monastery where Notovitch had claimed to have made the discovery, and they disavowed any knowledge of such a manuscript. There are many things that don't add up in the "Life of Saint Issa." First of all, no authentic Hindu or Buddhist text from that period references Jesus or any of the events described in Notovitch. Jesus is described as having studied in the Orissa area dating to the 12th century CE, over a millennium later. Jesus is called Issa in this account, but this is an Islamic name for him which was not used until much later.
This concept, however, has refused to die. Other travelers to Tibet, such as Swami Abhedenada, Nicholas Roerich, and others claimed that they have been told similar stories by monks. Possibly the monks were just catering to what the visitor wanted to hear, a known problem for field ethnologists. The controversial Ahmadiyya Muslims believe that Jesus survived the crucifixion, and then fled to India, where he died of old age. The 'channeled' Aquarian Gospel of Jesus repeats Notovitchs' narrative with much embellishment. The ""Jesus in India"" story was also incorporated by Elizabeth Clare Prophet.
On the balance, there may be some core truth to this hypothesis which has yet to be uncovered. There are some parallels between the traditional stories of Krishna and Christ (not to mention the similar names). The Hindus were well aware of the Greeks, and the Egyptian Hermetic and Gnostic schools were more than likely influenced by Hinduism. Buddhism and Christianity have more in common than their adherents are usually willing to admit. It may not have happened exactly as in Notovitch claimed, and there may not be an 'Issa Sutra' gathering dust in some remote Tibetan lamasery. However, there are many points of similarity between the first millennium religious movements of the Near East and India which remain to be explored."
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shaun
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Post by shaun on May 11, 2013 10:29:20 GMT 1
Many people believe this to be true or at least to have some truth in it. Some years ago I watched a documentary on this subject. These people went 1 step further & named the monastery that Jesus supposedly learnt at. The tradition at this temple is that when the training is completed a brick with the ordained monks name is placed in a wall. The normal time it takes for a monk to be trained at this monastery is 7-12 years, however there was 1 brick in the wall that the documentary makers claimed was Jesus brick & he was ordained in less than 2 years. That was the bit that convinced me they were right however as we are talking about a man that lived 2000 years ago, it's probably fair to say that it's all speculative. The current Dalai Lama has also referred to Jesus as a boddhisatva. The piece in your post brian that refers to Issa stirring up a caste war against the brahmins sounds very Jesus like to me.
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brian
Senior Member
Posts: 83
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Post by brian on May 16, 2013 1:20:33 GMT 1
I accept Jesus according to this version. It sounds more plausible and realistic. But of course this story was suppressed and called "heresy" by the Catholic powers that be in the Middle Ages. That fact comes to no surprise to me since they were regularly torturing peasants to repent for their sins and burning women for having sex. What a blessing it must have been to live around the year 1200 in Europe, with the bubonic plague and all.
This portion that I pasted into this post comes from a book I recently purchased called "[glow=red,2,300]The Breath of God[/glow]" written by Jeffery Small. It is in the genre of "The DaVinci Dode". It is fiction interwoven with historical fact for "edu-tainment". I haven't started reading the book yet but it sounds amazing. The writer is a like a Phd in Buddhist studies and has traveled to India and Tibet.
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Post by Rudy on May 16, 2013 16:51:57 GMT 1
These people went 1 step further & named the monastery that Jesus supposedly learnt at. I just wonder which Buddhist monastery is 2000 years old and still stands upright??? |
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graham
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Posts: 96
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Post by graham on May 18, 2013 2:04:03 GMT 1
I watched a documentary on this sometime ago as well (perhaps the same one Shaun did). I thought it was bogus. I've thought about this a lot, and there was a time I wanted it to be true. Now I really couldn't care less. Does it really matter who learned what from whom, or where the source of the knowledge came from? Everything Buddha taught was simply a description of reality. His teachings had nothing to do with him personally. And I personally feel that Jesus was grossly misinterpreted when he made statements like "I am the son of God" etc... Every written or spoken word by either teacher has been subject to so many translations and levels of human interpretation that they can't possibly exist in their original form. Nor is it necessary. Truth is truth. Rightfully divide the word for yourself. Both teachers said that.
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Post by shaunc on May 18, 2013 2:50:11 GMT 1
I watched a documentary on this sometime ago as well (perhaps the same one Shaun did). I thought it was bogus. I've thought about this a lot, and there was a time I wanted it to be true. Now I really couldn't care less. Does it really matter who learned what from whom, or where the source of the knowledge came from? Everything Buddha taught was simply a description of reality. His teachings had nothing to do with him personally. And I personally feel that Jesus was grossly misinterpreted when he made statements like "I am the son of God" etc... Every written or spoken word by either teacher has been subject to so many translations and levels of human interpretation that they can't possibly exist in their original form. Nor is it necessary. Truth is truth. Rightfully divide the word for yourself. Both teachers said that. I couldn't agree more Graham. Take whatever & whoevers teachings into your life & apply them to yourself if you find them beneficial. The other teacings put somewhere safe, in case you change your mind about them & find them useful later on. |
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brian
Senior Member
Posts: 83
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Post by brian on May 18, 2013 18:43:03 GMT 1
Yeah I agree with you guys, shaun and graham. The exact details aren't important and the idea that Jesus traveled to India and learned meditation is questionable, debatable for sure.
Yet what I really like about this fascinating "version of history" is that it creates alot of harmony and peace for the world. It seems to have a healing benefit. I think it reconciles differences between East/West and crosses many psychological, political and cultural barriors.
If you've ever read any of the Coptic Gnostic gospels found in Nag Hammadi in Egypt in the 1940's. I think you would see a more "buddhist" Jesus portrayed, for example The Gnostic gospel of Mary Magdelene and St. Thomas describe him as an enlightened man, very parallel to Buddha's persona. But of course this "heretical" point of view was suppressed by the medieval Catholic Church back in the day.
In a sense, you could call it a religious conspiracy against "buddha nature", or the "innocence of mankind", or "the simple man". "the native man"..."taken from the Garden of Eden"....like Milton's "Paradise Lost". As I mentioned this post was inspired from a historical fiction novel in the vein of The DaVinci Code called "The Breath Of God" which I'm waiting to arrive in the mail from ordering on Amazon.
Now, it's not that Christianity was suppressing Buddhism or Hinduism, per se, but how the establishment of power kept man from his own innate "True Self" or "original connection to Nature". Of course it was highly political and ego motivated. But I guess to focus on this exploitation isn't something that should overly concern me. It would be like looking at it as a passive observer rather than one trying to actually live the Way of the Tao. But it's probably benefitial to at least be honest and see this phenomenom occuring. It is almost like a rejection of corporate advertising or "brain washing". But this for me personally needs to be transcended for self liberation and meditative space for compassion. It is like a current in a river I must either go against or travel with. I think I get confused there. I think I see Buddha sitting on the other shore. He says, "Be still without judgment, you are a lotus flower, one among many." I will not lose you, I will not grasp you.
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Post by Rudy on May 18, 2013 22:26:27 GMT 1
But this for me personally needs to be transcended for self liberation and meditative space for compassion. It is like a current in a river I must either go against or travel with. I think I get confused there. I think I see Buddha sitting on the other shore. He says, "Be still without judgment, you are a lotus flower, one among many." I will not lose you, I will not grasp you. Wise words, Brian... Don't forget that even within Buddhist traditions there are more differences than I would like to see. Quite a view people of the Theravada tradition consider all the Mahayana teachings to be completely heretical. "The truth" is not as simple as it sounds... |
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Post by Ed Fadde on May 19, 2013 2:06:51 GMT 1
Has anyone else encountered narratives about Jesus amongst the peoples of a small town in Japan, who remain insistent to this day that he dwelled amongst them in those days; and, also, that Jesus spent time with the Aztecs? In the latter case, I read somewhere but cannot find it now, the primary reason the Aztecs laid down their arms to Cortez was gravely mistaking Cortez for the long lost friend of their legends...basically fell to worship Cortez thinking he was Jesus Christ. Cortez and his army were at once baffled by the Aztec' behavior, and anxious to exploit this unexpected vulnerability by an otherwise fierce warrior-culture.
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Post by Rudy on May 19, 2013 12:56:21 GMT 1
Both these stories sound extremely unlikely to say the least.
How on earth would a simple fisherman from the Middle East around the year 0 have travelled all the way to Japan? I think there is little doubt that he was a fisherman, not a kind of Marco Polo.
To go to South America seems obvious nonsense to me; how could he have crossed the ocean and make it back? Remember how hard that was almost 1400 years later... Even if it would have been technically possible, why would he have done that, and why would that have been kept still - unthinkable to me.
In those days, travelling 100 miles was a trip of a life time...
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Post by Mandala on May 19, 2013 14:11:42 GMT 1
It seems to have a healing benefit. I think it reconciles differences between East/West and crosses many psychological, political and cultural barriors. Archetype syncretism - We once discussed Buddha's story being transformed into St. Josaphat by the Catholic Church, and there were several Issa's ('masters'). The Mormons blended Quetzalcoatl/Jesus. Etc... |
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Post by MandalaRU on May 19, 2013 16:06:25 GMT 1
"Buddhism and Christianity have more in common than their adherents are usually willing to admit. About a year ago we had discussions about syncretism and the Nestorian church. Here is another excerpt which might interest you. Excerpt: When Jesus met Buddha "Europe's is not the only version of the Christian faith, nor is it necessarily the oldest heir of the ancient church. For more than 1,000 years, other quite separate branches of the church established thriving communities across Asia, and in their sheer numbers, these churches were comparable to anything Europe could muster at the time. These Christian bodies traced their ancestry back not through Rome, but directly to the original Jesus movement of ancient Palestine. They moved across India, Central Asia, and China, showing no hesitation to share - and learn from - the other great religions of the East. ...Far from being fringe sects, these forgotten churches were firmly rooted in the oldest traditions of the apostolic church. Throughout their history, these Nazarenes used Syriac, which is close to Jesus' own language of Aramaic, and they followed Yeshua, not Jesus. No other church - not Roman Catholics, not Eastern Orthodox - has a stronger claim to a direct inheritance from the earliest Jesus movement. The most stunningly successful of these eastern Christian bodies was the Church of the East, often called the Nestorian church. ...When Nestorian Christians were pressing across Central Asia during the sixth and seventh centuries, they met the missionaries and saints of an equally confident and expansionist religion: Mahayana Buddhism. Buddhists too wanted to take their saving message to the world, and launched great missions from India's monasteries and temples. In this diverse world, Buddhist and Christian monasteries were likely to stand side by side, as neighbors and even, sometimes, as collaborators...In presenting their faith, Christians naturally used the cultural forms that would be familiar to Asians. They told their stories in the forms of sutras, verse patterns already made famous by Buddhist missionaries and teachers. A stunning collection of Jesus Sutras was found in caves at Dunhuang, in northwest China. Some Nestorian writings draw heavily on Buddhist ideas, as they translate prayers and Christian services in ways that would make sense to Asian readers. In some texts, the Christian phrase "angels and archangels and hosts of heaven" is translated into the language of buddhas and devas. ...Christian scholars worked amiably together for some years to translate seven copious volumes of Buddhist wisdom.... All the famous movements of later Japanese history, including Zen, can be traced to one of those ancient schools and, ultimately - incredibly - to the work of a Christian bishop. By the 12th century, flourishing churches in China and southern India were using the lotus-cross". www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2008/12/14/when_jesus_met_buddha/ |
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Post by Mandala on May 20, 2013 13:38:22 GMT 1
ORIGINAL NATURE NOT ORIGINAL SIN
Extract from the Jesus Sutras – Rediscovering the lost religion of Taoist Christianity – by Martin Palmer One core concept that shapes all the liturgical Sutras is that of original nature. This is radically at variance with traditional Christian thought, which has tended to emphasize the defects of humanity: the fault of Original Sin. In China, the tables are dramatically turned. The Church of the East broke away nom the West just in time to avoid the magnificence and the curse of St. Augustine of Hippo, who took the basic notion of original sin and built it into the destructive force it was to become. In looking at the theology of the Church of the East, we can see what Christianity without St. Augustine might have been like. ...All these liturgical Sutras celebrate freedom from karma, reincarnation, and the power of death, and the possibility of spiritual freedom from these forces on earth as well as in heaven. www.goldenageproject.org.uk/968.php
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Post by Rudy on May 20, 2013 17:30:47 GMT 1
Rediscovering the lost religion of Taoist Christianity Actually, a similar thing happened with Buddhism and Taoism; so much so that for ordinary people the difference was often hard to grasp. Although there are similarities with the emphasis on meditation and achieving calmness etc., in terms of philosophy and the essence of the system, Buddhism and Taoism are very different. For example, I understood there is no rebirth in Taoism, and people strive to reach an eternal life, rather then transcend life alltogether. On top of that, the Chinese often tended to mix this with Confucianism as well which as such has little to do with religion, but is more like a set of social rules/morality from Confucius the philosopher. I would not be surprised if the Chinese added Christianity also to the mix here and there.  |
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Post by Mandala on May 21, 2013 12:49:12 GMT 1
...in terms of philosophy and the essence of the system, Buddhism and Taoism are very different. Similar to Buddhism, the Tao teachings were evolved into a religion, broken into several schools, and with Lao Tsu deified. It may be more of a modern concept to self-identify as belonging/converting to one 'true religion', but across cultures people have held on to indigenous beliefs while weaving in new 'movements', just as Gandhara was a multi-cultural hub with the ancient scrolls showing variations of the same sutras, and Buddha teaching according to each person's understanding. One thing, all things;
move among and intermingle,
without distinction.
To live in this realization
is to be without anxiety about non-perfection.
To live in this faith is the road to non-duality, because the non-dual is one with the trusting mind. |
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brian
Senior Member
Posts: 83
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Post by brian on May 22, 2013 3:04:34 GMT 1
When I look at Christianity, I see more emphasis put on "God the Father", the Almighty Creator, rather than Jesus himself. Even when Jesus is talked about in the pulpit, it is always a magical, supernatural Jesus who performs otherworldly miracles and raises from the dead. It always seems sensational and overdramatic when it appeals to emotion rather than true wisdom.
I think this over-emphasis on transcendence and any afterlife is a distraction from true spirituality. It's usually "out there", it's never "within us". It's always out of our control and in the hands of God, it is never our own imperative. The Abrahamic religions play on human passion and moral idealism. They may appear to offer guidance and strength as a front, but in reality they confuse and weaken the individual's character. Christianity and Islam only strenghen group mentality! It has the same EFFECT as any political propaganda.
Now the adherents to these faiths are NOT bad or evil people. I would see them more as VICTIMS to have compassion for. They have been duped, they are deluded, they are misled. They are human. I understand their faith in God b/c I used to be in their shoes. But God is historically a totalitarian monarch, not a democratic leader of kind justice and goodwill.
Buddha and Jesus on the other hand, ARE democratic leaders as well as mindful, spiritual men.
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