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Sangha
May 29, 2013 16:26:53 GMT 1
Post by bristollad on May 29, 2013 16:26:53 GMT 1
We take refuge or safe direction in the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha and yet the institution of fully-supported western monastics seems, in the main, to stall in the west.
Are westerners just too miserly or has the protestant work ethic become etched too deeply into our collective psyches? Is supporting someone who doesn't have a proper job wrong?
Will the Buddha-Dharma ever move beyond the fringes of society without the establishment of a monastic Sangha upholding the vinaya?
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graham
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Posts: 96
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Sangha
May 30, 2013 4:36:15 GMT 1
Post by graham on May 30, 2013 4:36:15 GMT 1
Will the Buddha-Dharma ever move beyond the fringes of society without the establishment of a monastic Sangha upholding the vinaya? Does it matter?
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Sangha
May 30, 2013 7:47:00 GMT 1
Post by bristollad on May 30, 2013 7:47:00 GMT 1
I think so.
These 84000 teachings have been passed down to us relieve the suffering of sentient beings. The Dharma enumerates clearer and more comprehensive methods for increasing ethical behaviour, wisdom and compassion than other religious and philosophical systems I have encountered.
How can we uphold the three-fold refuge without upholding the Sangha?
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Sangha
May 30, 2013 12:42:43 GMT 1
Post by Mandala on May 30, 2013 12:42:43 GMT 1
Excerpt: These characteristics have had a profound influence on mainstream religion in the West and have already started to alter the shape of Buddhist spirituality. The four are: (1) The "leveling of distinctions" so that the sharp distinctions between the ordained religious person and the lay person are being blurred or even abolished. (2) The rise of "secular spirituality" or "spiritual secularity" marked by a shift in the orientation of religion away from the quest for some transcendent state, a dimension beyond life in the world, towards a deep, enriching experience of the human condition and a transformative way of living within the world. (3) The conviction that the mark of authentic religious faith is a readiness to engage in compassionate action, especially to challenge social and political structures that sustain injustice, inequality, violence, and environmental despoliation. (4) Religious pluralism: abandoning the claim to exclusive religious truth and adopting a pluralistic outlook that can allow the possibility of complementary, mutually illuminating perspectives on religious truth and practice. This applies both to the relations of Buddhists with followers of other religions, and to the internal relations between followers of different Buddhist schools and traditions. www.urbandharma.org/udharma13/challenge.html
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jeff
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Posts: 128
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Sangha
May 30, 2013 13:35:11 GMT 1
Post by jeff on May 30, 2013 13:35:11 GMT 1
There are plenty of "western" Sangha members upholding the vinaya, and yes, it matters. I really see the spreading of the Dharma to the U.S. as something that started in the late 1960's early 1970's when people like Jeffrey Hopkins, Robert Thurman, Alex Berzin and several others brought their studies into the mainstream. Of course the great masters like Lama Yeshe, Geshe Ngawang Wangyal and many others brought actual experience to the west.
So it is up to you and me to practice hard and create the causes and conditions for this to really take hold. Not just in the west but in the jungles, forests and woods.
Do you have a frustration with the rate of expansion or a fear of losing the teachings or something else?
Jeff
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graham
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Posts: 96
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Sangha
May 30, 2013 14:54:53 GMT 1
Post by graham on May 30, 2013 14:54:53 GMT 1
The Dharma enumerates clearer and more comprehensive methods for increasing ethical behaviour, wisdom and compassion than other religious and philosophical systems I have encountered. Muslims, Scientologists and Wiccas all feel that way about their belief systems as well. Are we supposed to be out trying to convert people? I guess I'm not doing my job then.
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Sangha
May 30, 2013 16:10:07 GMT 1
Post by bristollad on May 30, 2013 16:10:07 GMT 1
I think that the establishment of Sangha communities is a part of the causes and conditions necessary for thriving Dharma. I worry for the preservation of the experience and realisation of the teachings. I'm not at all frustrated about its spread.
I'm sure they do, that's why they are followers of those systems (as well as cultural and societal pressures etc.). I respect ethics, wisdom and compassion wherever they are found - it's just I find them most clearly dealt with in Buddhism. That's why I take refuge in the triple gem.
There seems to be a feeling amongst some Buddhists that the Sangha is irrelevant and anachronistic. That is the attitude I am questioning.
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Sangha
May 30, 2013 21:35:01 GMT 1
Post by Rudy on May 30, 2013 21:35:01 GMT 1
Hi Bristollad, I actually think this is a very good question. Obviously not easy to answer. Just a few thoughts from my experience in Tibetan Buddhism - and I suspect it may not be all that different in the other traditions perhaps. - The idea of supporting monastics in a way as in Asia is simply not part of our culture. For Tibetans, it seems extremely obvious to donate a large part of their income for the Sangha and this may be true in China and the Theravada countries as well. In the west probably many people struggle with the idea of having to financially take care of an adult in a monastery - perhaps we are still too selfish, or we set other priorities? - being Sangha as a westerner can be very difficult: it is like falling inbetween two cultures, starting to learn about Buddhism when already an adult rather then as a young child, possibly needing to learn a different language to be able to converse well with a teacher in his/her own language, different cultural customs that are alien to us etc.
But, I agree with you that sangha is very important; if you compare the Dharma with medicine, the doctor with the Buddha, you still need Sanga (nurses) to run a hospital and cure people. Tibetans often refer to monasteries as the powerhouses of the Dharma, and I can relate to that, because they have a very important function of passing on the teachings, combined with the experience of the practice itself. Chances are that without a living and organised Sangha, the Dharma would long ago have turned into nothing but an 'interesting old collection of texts'. So, I think maintaining a Sangha is probably quite essential for the future, to prevent that the Dharma and the practice of Dharma are lost. But how to change our attitute to the Sangha? Whether we want to sponsor monks and nuns remains an individual decision. To change the world, we need to start with ourselves and see if we ourselves are prepared to help them....
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brian
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Posts: 83
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Sangha
May 30, 2013 22:41:50 GMT 1
Post by brian on May 30, 2013 22:41:50 GMT 1
bristollad wrote
The Dharma enumerates clearer and more comprehensive methods for increasing ethical behaviour, wisdom and compassion than other religious and philosophical systems I have encountered.
I totally agree with that. All philosophies are not equally valid or effective. I would laugh at any Scientologist who told me his "religion" was the best. It's based on a science fiction novel. That fact alone makes it pure fantasy, not truth.
Most religions all teach the same basic ethics that are pretty much common sense. Don't kill, lie, or steal etc. But HOW to be a good person is what really matters. Buddhism definitely is most specific and scientific in all it's skillful means. In comparison to the dharma, I see many other theologies as amusing sci-fi comics.
The Sangha is very important. Like jeff said, be the change you want to see.
Peace.
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graham
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Posts: 96
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Sangha
May 31, 2013 17:35:07 GMT 1
Post by graham on May 31, 2013 17:35:07 GMT 1
Does the sangha only refer to monastics, or is it all people who have taken refuge? I think that Buddhism has merged with whatever culture it has encountered and has taken on unique characteristics in each location. You can see the blend of Hinduism/Yoga and Buddhism in the Tibetan tradition, as well as the merging of Taoism and Buddhism in China. However, in those cultures, the monastic tradition is still one that is valued. In the United States, we are not as familiar with that concept and our Buddhism is expressed in different ways. While there are numerous Buddhist monasteries in the United States, I think most American Buddhists see the teachings as a way to increase happiness in their daily lives. I doubt very many American Buddhists have aspirations of completely renouncing Samsara, as they have been so conditioned to pursue pleasure in this world. I don't really see this as a problem, and I don't see why monastic life or true renunciation has to go hand in hand with enlightenment. The only true temple is the mind, no? Can't we still enjoy the beauty of this world without attaching to it? I was listening to a talk by Ven. Thubten Chodron last night (who started an abbey in Washington state), who was saying that life is essentially suffering and pain. She very much wanted to get this message across in her talk. While I respect her as much as any other teacher I've come across, I just can't agree with this perspective. I think there are two sides of the coin, pleasure and pain. While pleasure often leads to pain, we can still pursue it and enjoy it without attachment. I am never going to truly renounce samsara or seek the monastic life, because I will just never view it the way many Buddhists do. I imagine my feelings are shared by many who study Buddhism in the United States, and that's why I think the monastic life is not well supported here. However, I do not see this as necessarily a bad thing. Those who are called to monasticism still have more than enough opportunities to do so in other locations. If we're out trying to build temples and spread religion, I think we are truly missing the point of all that the Buddha taught.
Edit: Just to add to that... What is so great about monastic life, anyways? I'd argue that removing one's self from society to study and meditate for one's self is rather selfish. If the aim is to benefit all sentient beings, what good is anyone doing living in a temple? I bet I've volunteered more of my time helping others than many who have gone off and lived in monasteries.
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matt
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Sangha
May 31, 2013 18:44:21 GMT 1
Post by matt on May 31, 2013 18:44:21 GMT 1
Well, I honestly believe that when you have people seriously devoting their life to Buddhist practice it helps transform collective energy and helps gradually change attitudes.
If you look at the problems in the world, all of them, war, poverty, environment-- this is all due to human attitudes and ignorance, and I mean that in the Buddhist sense of there being two kinds of ignorance: 1. Not having information 2. Mis-percieving and Mis-apprehending the nature of things.
I could be more generous. Right now money is an issue for me, but next time I feel flush I should make a point of donating.
So I don't want to say I am right and you are wrong, Graham. I just want to be clear that I believe in something different than you do. To me the most effective way to change the world for people who have the right insight, is through practice. Now obviously most people don't get to that point for at least decades, if ever, but common sense can not change the disastrous direction of humanity in all of our societies. All it does is gives us ways to complain and argue. Meditation on emptiness, on the other hand, that can and I believe will save the species. In fact, I think it is already happening.
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matt
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Sangha
May 31, 2013 19:04:09 GMT 1
Post by matt on May 31, 2013 19:04:09 GMT 1
Having said that, I think there is something not-Buddhist about worrying about the evolution of the Sangha. If we were fully enlightened we might see it is perfect the way it is happening. I agree with Jeff, that it is our actions, including practice, and our motivations, that matter. Then again, that is my answer to everything... lol
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brian
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Sangha
Jun 1, 2013 6:36:12 GMT 1
Post by brian on Jun 1, 2013 6:36:12 GMT 1
graham wrote
While pleasure often leads to pain, we can still pursue it and enjoy it without attachment. I am never going to truly renounce samsara or seek the monastic life, because I will just never view it the way many Buddhists do.
I think a very effective use of monasteries is a temporary stay, maybe six months to a year. Then one can be more well trained in the dharma as he/she re-enters the modern world. I think that is common in the East yet of course some will decide to become monks or nuns as a full-time "career choice", which is great also.
I think the idea of enjoying pleasure without attachment graham is ideal, but how hard is that to actually do? From personal experience, with food, alcohol, sex, entertainments, sleep, etc., it is easier said than done. Perhaps in a monastery, abstinence from the excess of these things would create whole new realizations of what is truly pleasurable altogether. I wouldn't underestimate any of the Buddha's message...I've usually found out it was my own bias that caused misapprehension.
A monastic environment would demand self discipline which is essential for many to reach enlightenment. For those who are already well disciplined in their practice, then maybe a Sangha would not be as essential. I know I always feel happier and stronger in the company of fellow buddhsts at the temple I visit from time to time.
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