jeff
Senior Member
Posts: 128
|
Post by jeff on May 31, 2013 13:33:50 GMT 1
|
|
|
|
Post by bristollad on May 31, 2013 14:59:40 GMT 1
|
|
|
|
Post by Rudy on May 31, 2013 15:51:30 GMT 1
It's hard to believe these guys are more than Buddhists by association (not real Dharma practitioners). That's a bit dangerously generalized about conflicts you probably don't know much about. (I surely don't know much about the conflicts there.) Perhaps similarly, there was a decades-long civil war in Shri Lanka; but just because it is a largely Buddhist country, doesn't mean that everyone is a bad Buddhist... Of course, fighting a war is never good, but civil wars often leave people with few choices. |
|
graham
Senior Member
Posts: 96
|
Post by graham on May 31, 2013 16:48:25 GMT 1
How dare the NYT carelessly (or intentionally) bring religion into what is obviously a political struggle. I cannot stand the media. |
|
brian
Senior Member
Posts: 83
|
Post by brian on Jun 1, 2013 7:38:55 GMT 1
Actually it IS about religion as well as politics. They ALWAYS go hand in hand. The Buddhist people simply don't want Muslims in their country. I can't say I blame them. What good do they have to offer anyways? A Quran? LOL Muslims aren't "victims" here , they attract violence like flies to dung. These buddhists are wising up and taking action. Islam is not a peaceful religion, it's a cancer of humanity. Throughout history Muslims invaders destroyed Buddhist and Hindu temples in India and caused great bloodshed. Maybe this backlash is karmic justice. Just imagine the world without Islam. Terrorism wouldn't be such a threat. Just imagine all the people of the Midle East being reasonable and fair-minded without Sharia Law or Jihad. Of course world peace would probably still not exist, but then again WHO KNOWS??? Regardless, I'm not losing sleep at night b/c some buddhists are resisting Muslim foriegners. It is hard for me to respect anyone hellbent on expecting 72 virgins in heaven for sacrificing himself for some made up god named Allah. I think primates are smarter. Here is a wee part of my justification: www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCXHPKhRCVg&feature=player_detailpageP.S. I don't want to sound like a bigot. I'm really not! But as systems of thought and education for self improvment are concerned for the future, .....Buddhism, Taoism, Hinduism and non-western religions are the answer! The West offers science, technology and sanitation as it's gift, yet it's religions are s*. It is a criticism of the CONCEPT which controls people's minds, not the people themselves. Muslims are victims of their own masters, not of someone like me who disagrees with their religion. Delusion comes in many strong forms, within and without. I personally feel more compelled to spread the dharma in my homeland like a zealous Christian. Why? because it is more important for others to end the cycle of rebirth than for me. I can tolerate suffering. I can be punched in the face, ridiculed and it will be forgotten in a few days. I don't care. It is more important to me to save the world than save myself because I am insignificant whereas the world is significant. You can call me a Utilitarian. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. |
|
|
|
Post by Mandala on Jun 1, 2013 15:16:48 GMT 1
"Everything is so deeply interconnected that everything causes everything else. And everything changes, moving as a vast flow of trillions of processes: There is no permanence, no lasting city, no separate and enduring thing -- not even a separate and enduring self. To believe otherwise is the main way human beings amplify suffering into a kind of vocation. Knowing, really knowing these truths can lead to a sense of liberation that embraces joy and sorrow, life and death, daily routine and spiritual depth -- and that connects us compassionately with all beings in this web of existence that creates us as we create it. And it is said to be possible then to see that the whole vast intricate enterprise of the universe is not meaningless matter but a great sacred whole, a Mandala, of which we are a part, in which all beings are ultimately destined, no matter their struggles to the contrary, to become enlightened.
And it is said that the very cycles of entanglement and suffering that earn this world the label samsara are, to the enlightened mind, enlightment itself." www.longleaf.net/mandala/
|
|
brian
Senior Member
Posts: 83
|
Post by brian on Jun 2, 2013 2:12:54 GMT 1
Please hear me out fellow online Sangha. I am in great conflict.
I am beginning to think that all religions are a waste of time, including Buddhism. I mean everything is just words that sound nice...like being "one with the universe". Sounds cool, but really?
It seems that Atheists have the right answers for everything. They don't sugar coat. They don't "over-spiritualize" things. They are rational and reasonable people who can understand ethics, science, history and the possibilities of a better future. Religious people just seem backward and too conservative in their outlook, not to mention usually hypocritical.
I am so glad that young people are getting further and further away from any religious upbringing. People can criticize and ridicule and tear down this monstrous thing called God that people have blindly worshipped for centuries. I think denouncing religion and bringing in a purely scientific and secular world IS the future. Religion offers so little but expects so much. If there is any future religion at all, the only acceptable and tolerable type is of the Eastern variety. The Abrahamic religions are evil and manipulative to the core. I know this is not a popular position but I have seen so much overwhelming evidence to support this position.
It's weird because on one hand, many people say others can believe whatever they want to believe, if it makes them feel good, it's harmless, whatever. Yet on the other hand, they say God should be number 1 in your life over family, career, etc. Your salvation for eternity depends upon your faith. Even in Buddhism, our rebirth is dependent upon our practice. So basically we have a situation where all the preachers and gurus are saying this is the ultimate truth, you should be mindful of the dharma or remain in the presence of God all the time. But yet when somebody challenges that, then the moderate and politically correct thing said is, Oh it's no big deal, live and let live. It's all basically the same thang. People do wrong things, religion itself is never wrong. Every religion teaches you to be a good person.
Well, what is religion then in everyday reality? Is it just no big deal or something we should totally dedicate our lives to and take LITERALLY? Because if all religions are just as good as any other than why the hell am I wasting my time trying to follow Buddhism when it would be much simpler for me to just be a sheep-like Christian?
|
|
|
|
Post by Mandala on Jun 2, 2013 13:21:50 GMT 1
Please hear me out fellow online Sangha. I am in great conflict. It's just an ego tantrum. Excerpt: The Teachings of the Venerable Cat "Because there is an ego, there is also an enemy. When the ego no longer exists, there is no more enemy. If you stick a word on things, if you enclose things in fixed and artificial forms, they appear to exist in opposition. Male opposes female, fire opposes water. But when there is no judgment within your mind, no conflict of opposites can take place. There is then no longer either an ego or an enemy.
When the intellect has been surpassed, you get a taste of the state of absolute 'non-action', you are in serene harmony with the universe. You no longer have to choose between true or false, pleasing or displeasing. You are free of the dualistic world manufactured by your intellect. But when even an extremely tiny piece of dust enters our eyes, we can no longer keep them open. The mind is similar to the eye; once an object has entered it, its power is spent.
This is all I can explain to you on this matter. It's up to you to experience its truth. Satori, awakening, is nothing other than the fact of truly seeing within yourself. Satori is the end of a dream. Awakening, self-realization, and seeing within yourself are no more and no less than synonyms." --From a seventeenth-century book on the art of the sword. |
|
jeff
Senior Member
Posts: 128
|
Post by jeff on Jun 2, 2013 14:00:51 GMT 1
I think denouncing religion and bringing in a purely scientific and secular world IS the future. So Brian, does that mean that you believe that current science is an accurate measure of what is real? |
|
graham
Senior Member
Posts: 96
|
Post by graham on Jun 2, 2013 19:49:28 GMT 1
Well, what is religion then in everyday reality? Is it just no big deal or something we should totally dedicate our lives to and take LITERALLY? Because if all religions are just as good as any other than why the hell am I wasting my time trying to follow Buddhism when it would be much simpler for me to just be a sheep-like Christian? Regardless of what you, or anyone else believes, can't you see how harmful, and how limited, the me vs. you/us vs. them mindset is? |
|
dan
Senior Member
Posts: 89
|
Post by dan on Jun 2, 2013 20:46:40 GMT 1
Please hear me out fellow online Sangha. I am in great conflict. Denunciation, rather than renunciation, will do that. |
|
|
|
Post by bristollad on Jun 2, 2013 21:32:03 GMT 1
Brian, being a card-carrying Buddhist isn't important. Finding ways to develop our ethical conduct, our understanding of reality and our compassion is important. When someone angrily shouts at me, it is hard to hear their message. Your points may have merit or not but if they are shouted angrily then most people will just react to the anger, not hear the message. You seem to have some connection to Buddhism but are attracted to modern atheistic, secular western thought too. Have you heard of Stephen Batchelor? He is an ex-monastic who studied in both the Tibetan and Korean traditions before disrobing. Since then, he has tried to strip away what he considers mere cultural baggage to leave the Buddha's message clean and uncluttered. His secular, atheistic approach to Buddhism might prove useful to you. Check out: www.stephenbatchelor.org/index.php/en/ |
|
|
|
Post by Mandala on Jun 3, 2013 12:20:04 GMT 1
Excerpts: Immature Ego "... as young children, we learn to keep the confusing adult world simple and manageable by using the skill of "either / or" thinking. Some call this dualistic thinking. Others refer to it as black-and-white thinking... So at a very young age we learned to strongly defend our beliefs and opinions. Over time all of our beliefs, opinions, certainties, assumptions and conclusions about life became very rigid and inflexible. They all represented what is right and good. They all came to represent various aspects of "the" truth. Period. The primitive ego of our unconscious inner-child often becomes very angry, defensive, and resentful when others tell us we are wrong. It is positive "we" are right and "they" are wrong...When we unconsciously attempt to use the "black and white", "all or nothing" life skills and insights of our very young inner-child to manage our adult life, we are almost certain to journey through life with a very full tea cup unconsciously shooting ourselves in the foot by arrogantly and aggressively defending our beliefs as "absolute truths" and openly criticizing the beliefs and behaviors of others....In other words, when our unconscious primitive ego is in control of our life, anything that challenges our existing beliefs is automatically and emotionally rejected as wrong. ...our primitive ego's black-and-white thinking process tends to keep us ignorant, rigid in our beliefs, and labeled by others as arrogant because we refuse to open ourselves to new ideas....especially when we insist on telling others we think they are wrong...Reality is not black and white....it is always gray. There is always truth on both sides of every issue. Until we tame our primitive ego we will not be able to embrace these important realities." ezinearticles.com/?Most-Important-Skill-Needed-to-Achieve-Wisdom-and-Happiness&id=4727212
|
|
brian
Senior Member
Posts: 83
|
Post by brian on Jun 4, 2013 4:04:44 GMT 1
jeff wrote So Brian, does that mean that you believe that current science is an accurate measure of what is real?I do think science is a pretty accurate measure of what is real. It's not perfect but what is? I wouldn't dismiss science and say it's useless because it can make mistakes. Yet for example, I'm going to believe a scientist's word on evolution over some young-earth creationist's theory based on the Book of Genesis. I believe the theory of gravity is true so I won't jump off a skyscraper and think I can fly if someone tells me I'm an angel. I'm just saying that the trend for the future is in science and technology. Religion won't take astronauts to Mars but science might. Religion won't find a cure for cancer, but science might. Religion won't really do anything but create division. At best religion will comfort some people and give them inspiration. But religion is not going to stop global warming or create alternative fuel sources. It is not going to build new highways or fix a broken bone. If I get very sick and need medical attention, I'm not going to an evangelist to heal me or just meditate for days. I'll go to a hospital first where doctors trained in science will hopefully be able to help me. To put religion on a pedestal and think science is worthless is completely insane. Yet admittedly to put science on a pedestal and say religion is worthless is not wise either. But I definitely place my faith in science in making the world a better place more than religion anyday. I only say that because the history of mankind clearly shows that to be the case. Both science AND religion have been responsible for atrocities in the past, such as the atomic bombings of Japan ending WWII and the Holocaust that was fueled by religious bias, but overall science has tangibly improved life much more without a doubt. graham wrote Regardless of what you, or anyone else believes, can't you see how harmful, and how limited, the me vs. you/us vs. them mindset is?Well I agree with you there. That is not how I want to feel. That mindset is not healthy or what buddhism teaches. Yet no matter how non-dualistic and unified I may ever be in my mind, other people will still be dualistic and have a me vs. them mentality. The question I am trying to find an answer to is whether religion should be taken seriously as if our lives, love, happiness, self worth, afterlife, everything depends on it as many preachers and gurus would say. Or should religion just be taken as an inspirational pastime where nothing should be taken literally or especially important or unique. When people say all religions basically teach the same thing and it doesn't matter what religion you are a long as you're a good person, then that seems to diminish it's significance. If one religion is just as good as any other.... then why bother? You could simply just be a good person with no religion at all. And if that's the case, religion is for the most part a charade that doesn't even matter. That is just the message I get when I hear this. So is religion all important for our salvation or is it really just a game anyone can play to be part of a crowd? This is my conflict. bristollad wrote You seem to have some connection to Buddhism but are attracted to modern atheistic, secular western thought too. Yes that is true. I am aware of Stephen Batchelor. I have listened to a few of his lectures and read some of his book "Buddhism Without Beliefs". That is probably the closest "version" I connect with. He takes away all the supernatural nonsense out of it that's generally just window dressing and focuses on the practical applications of Buddhism. Basically he talks directly without metaphors or otherworldy claims. Thanks for the link.  |
|
|
|
Post by Mandala on Jun 4, 2013 12:58:04 GMT 1
Yet no matter how non-dualistic and unified I may ever be in my mind, other people will still be dualistic and have a me vs. them mentality. It's the difference between immature/mature ego, healthy/unhealthy ego, neurotic compassion/compassion...inner strength vs. having to lean on externals for stability. Robert Thurman: The best time to see this 'I' is said to be in a state of injured innocence, when you are indignant, when you feel that you have been wronged. The thought: 'I am right. . . this has been done to me!' contains the firm feeling, the hard nut of the self. "The key, again, in the Buddhist sense, is not dissolving but developing the ego into a more flexible and permeable ego. This is considered a strong ego, capable of both surrender and function. The weak ego is the rigid, defensive one." |
|
jeff
Senior Member
Posts: 128
|
Post by jeff on Jun 4, 2013 15:21:34 GMT 1
jeff wrote So Brian, does that mean that you believe that current science is an accurate measure of what is real?I do think science is a pretty accurate measure of what is real. In its entirety? |
|
brian
Senior Member
Posts: 83
|
Post by brian on Jun 5, 2013 2:41:34 GMT 1
Thanks Mandala for your exerpts of buddhist wisdom. It is something I need to remember. Jeff, I think the best answer for me to say is I don't know. I'm not a scientist nor a monk Lol I guess it's something that doesn't really matter. I get attracted to these kinds of debates but it doesn't help or go anywhere. It's easy to say this or that about politics or religion, but it doesn't change anything. I appreciate and value the Sciences just as much as I do Buddhism. I have my hang-ups from losing my faith in Christianity but it's something I NEED TO LET GO. It doesn't matter what others believe. I don't know why I've thought it did. I just want to find my inner peace and be a better person. I can't allow myself to get caught up with jugdements anymore and constantly trying to defend my position. It just seems like a no win situation. Thanks. Peace |
|
jeff
Senior Member
Posts: 128
|
Post by jeff on Jun 5, 2013 13:58:49 GMT 1
Jeff, I think the best answer for me to say is I don't know. I'm not a scientist nor a monk Lol I guess it's something that doesn't really matter. It matters a great deal, or it should, if you are seeking the truth, which is what Buddhism does. Brian, if you are seeking peace through discovering what is true and real and you are deciding that science is your most reliable source then it should be absolutely essential for you to at least ponder to what degree science can provide you with this information. I don't dispute that science is a reliable source for the truth but I believe it falls far short of the expanded view that is necessary for true peace. Science is not meant to do that. That is the job of a spiritual practice. So if you propose we follow science religiously yet science can never prove what is real then your solution doesn't work. |
|
|
|
Post by Mandala on Jun 6, 2013 12:03:13 GMT 1
"The Dalai Lama recommends a radical new approach: a religionless religion, if you will, stripped of myth, superstition, and narrow dogmatism, and focused on the practical work of transforming human behavior. He wants to incorporate the insights of the hard sciences as well as psychology, philosophy, and sociology into a broad-based new discipline to address our current moral crisis. ...The world is also facing a lot of new problems, most of which are man-made. The root cause of these man made problems is the inability of human being to control their agitated minds. How to control such a state of mind is taught by the various religions of this world. ...The Dalai Lama advocates prayer and meditation as an antidote to the mind's capacity for mischief. But he insists that we need not limit ourselves to traditional spiritual techniques. He has written a book on the convergence of views between Buddhism and science and he helped to organize conferences where religious thinkers meet with scientists to explore their common ground. This is because, in his view, science can help religion to fine tune its own methods. ...The bottom line is that taming the mind creates more peaceful and contented human beings. This is the crux of the Dalai Lama's message; because, as his urgency suggests, we are running out of time to get it right."
|
|
graham
Senior Member
Posts: 96
|
Post by graham on Jun 7, 2013 17:19:10 GMT 1
"Buddhist extremist" is an oxymoron.
|
|
