matt
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Post by matt on Sept 1, 2013 20:30:38 GMT 1
Well, I really agree with what your'e saying schnoebi, but it is a little condescending to assume we are villanizing anyone, I'm not. For me this is not about anger or retaliation at all. I just think it can be too easy to sit back and feel righteous doing nothing while people are being slaughtered senselessly. I am also glad Obama decided to wait. And to me, that is a sign of wisdom, because he was ready to go, and being able to change directions like that tells me he is being detached and thoughtful, which are some of his strengths. There are a lot of good arguments for waiting a couple of weeks, and who knows we may see a miracle in that time. Actually, under the War Powers Act, he can start a war and wait 60 days for congressional approval. I think there are legitimate questions about whether that law is constitutional, but like any government, if there is a law and precedence in favor, then Presidents can use it. I also don't think he was saying the US is so big and independent they can do what they want, Rudy. He was saying Russia and China are going to Veto Action, and if the US and enough other Nations disagree, really believe that action is needed, then it is right, if not legal. You are in very poor company misconstruing and bashing Obama here. Rand Paul just praised Assad for protecting christians, and Sarah Palin said we should let Allah sort it out (which is a play on the Vietnam era slogan, "kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out," only she is arguing for no action, which is consistent with her values not because she loves peace, though, see below). There is a congress full of tea-party people who would rather eat hot coals than agree to anything he proposes, and believe God made the earth in 6 days, Obama care is evil, and global warming is a lie. Neo-Conservative Americans have no use for any mission that does not protect or advance "American Interests." They were strongly against our actions in Serbia, and Lybia, and yet they are all for bombing the heck out of Iran. Usually they Know next to nothing about anything beyond their own district. But the majority of Americans are just sick and tired of war, and that is a very good thing.
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Post by schnoebi on Sept 1, 2013 22:44:01 GMT 1
I was being a little vague about the "we" I was not pointing in any particular direction. I do wonder though if the "west" (keep this notion vague too), had not demonised and bullied Assad and Syria for all these years, Syria may still be a functioning country today (with a lot more people in it). As a Muslim country it was one of the most tolerant and open minded, accepted other religions and even encouraged women's education. Like all countries in the Middle East, they do not respond to bullying - they just harden their resolve. We are where we are, so must try to do the best we can with what we have got .. In the UK, where I am from, our Prime Minister (Cameron) recalled our Parliament and its members from their holidays last Friday , and forced a debate whether the UK would support the US in responding to the Assad regime's use of chemical weapons. He has, incidentally, the authority to engage our military services without consulting parliament, but he was wary that, our last Prime Minister (Blair) took us into Iraq on the basis that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction, which he did not. (Incidentally Blair lost all his credibility and has no voice/authority in the UK) The result was that Parliament decided that it would not support the US with retaliation, without some robust evidence and UN support. This rejection by the UK may not have been reported in the US, but I think has given Obama some space to breathe. Well I hope so... So it is not just the American people who are sick of war
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matt
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Post by matt on Sept 2, 2013 0:52:00 GMT 1
That is true, if the British Parliament had not resoundingly rejected it, no doubt, because of the whole Iraq scam and horrible war, Obama may have felt he had to go now. I am not against the Alawites, they are a very interesting people, but both Assads brutally attacked peaceful protests, or at least their militaries did. And this current regime has killed around 100,000 just trying to maintain control. The protestors were not even aiming for regime change. They just wanted an end to marshal law, originally. If Assad's reaction had not been so arrogant, they would have resolved it peacefully. I don't think anyone believes he has much control over Syrian security forces. Assad is just shorthand for his Government. That is why I also think decapitating Governments, while it sounds like it would be less violent, would not accomplish anything. And if some foreign government assassinated an American President, 90% of Americans would want war, whether they hated him or not.
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dan
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Post by dan on Sept 2, 2013 3:15:52 GMT 1
I'm of the opinion that throwing more violence in on an already present war will likely have an exponential effect, not only on the ground, but with the science and technologies of violence, including political strategies which employ it. We are primates with corporate powers manifesting as gods under whose sway we (unconsciously) act to demand adherence to the best way to live--or in this case, I guess, war. Weapons manufacturers employ their users. Their users, employing these products, serve and increase the manufacturers' wealth. Most nations are employees this way. Meanwhile...US boats sit in the waters near the main action, much like the camera's slow pan across a revolver in the first scene of the movie. The question is, how will they be used? Their mere presence makes them a target for any nefarious actors, real or accused. Matt wrote: I don't doubt that about you in the least, Matt. But for Obama, we wouldn't be having this conversation now, due to the apparent crossing of that red line he'd set. I kind of understand the idea of saving face in this matter--especially with his political rivals (who strike me as more like caricatures these days)--but I consider going to war to be failure. But this situation appears to be very much about retaliation, like a playground bullies scene. I'm grateful that the UK's decision and all those petitioners in the US have apparently had some effect. I've seen this mentioned as a "distaste" for more war....as though it had been a delightful delicacy at some point.
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matt
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Post by matt on Sept 2, 2013 18:45:29 GMT 1
I wonder how closely you all have been following the news from Syria for the last two years? You sound like Obama just cares about his ultimatum, and saving face, that is just plain crazy. If you don't understand that the slaughter of innocents is the issue, and the red line was always just the least we could do, then I think you are missing something important.
And what exactly is wrong with the red line? This began with massive, peaceful protest. Then it became slaughter, whole-scale and one sided. When Obama explained why he was not reacting to that, he said, if Syria, which owns the largest stockpile of chemical weapons in the world decides to use them against their own people, that will be a game changer. What is wrong with that? Are you really sure you are so smart and he is so immature? I don't think so.
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matt
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Posts: 425
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Post by matt on Sept 2, 2013 19:28:00 GMT 1
I have watched Obama in action since he was the junior Senator from Illinois. He is a competitive person, but so are virtually everyone I have ever met, including me and the nice people on this forum. Ego has not been his achilies heel. What he is criticized and often hated for the most, is being detached, and too willing to compromise. The right hate him for it, because it makes them look as ideological and intractable as they are, and the left love to bash him for it, because he isn't fighting every losing (political) battle they want him to, because they are also ideological and intractable. It sure is comfortable to live in a world of clear rights and wrongs, unfortunately that is not the world we share. You are against war, good for you. You don't think bombing Syria will help, fine, I respect that, but if you have no respect for a genuinely pragmatic, liberal American President, then there is nothing preventing people who are much, much worse getting the reigns. ANd I don't want any more of that.
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Post by Rudy on Sept 2, 2013 20:14:13 GMT 1
Let him close the most embarrassing prison of the western world, and I might give him the benefit of the doubt again.
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matt
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Post by matt on Sept 2, 2013 20:31:43 GMT 1
Guantanamo Bay sucks, Obama tried to close it, congress blocked him. He tried many times and many ways, including buying back an Old Federal Pen in North Carolina to do that, congress has blocked him. This congress, in particular, has blocked every piece of legislation (on every issue) he has proposed for the last 3 years. A lot of us think that has something to do with his race, but it also has a lot to do with his popularity, which was amazing high, and is still a lot higher than you would expect it to be, all things considered.
You mistrust America? good. But don't think for a moment people are any less immature and selfish in Norway. I think it is in the best interest of world peace and universal compassion for all people to understand that we tend to overlook exactly where our bread is buttered. I think he has been a wise leader. I am not going to tell anyone not to say otherwise. I will argue with you, though...LOL
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matt
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Posts: 425
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Post by matt on Sept 2, 2013 20:39:25 GMT 1
Sorry, I meant Holland. You know I bought into a Dutch International Fund in 1998. I made ten times my investment (of about 200 dollars) in 2 years. So I looked into why, and I can tell you, the Dutch have not lost their colonial spirit, anymore than Americans have.
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gary
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Post by gary on Sept 2, 2013 20:50:38 GMT 1
A lot of my friends talk about the Syrian conflict, and whether the wider international community should intervene or not. Most of us say no way, a few of us say Assad needs to be taken out.
I personally don't offer any opinions as I just don't know. All my friends know of this Syrian conflict (and I fear all you on here know about it) is what they see on the news, on the British BBC and Sky News, and the Irish RTE broadcasters. RTE only ever seem to regurgitate what the British agencies report. I never believe anything I hear on the news, take it all with a pinch of salt. It's an amazing tool for controlling the masses and feeding misinformation to suit particular agendas.
I dont trust any news agencies. I will briefly skim over as many reports as possible and try to read between the lines to get the gist of whats going on, but I fear that's as close as I will ever get to knowing the truth. So I can hold my hands up and say I have no real idea what is actually going on in Syria, therefore I can't possibly know if it's right to intervene or not. If it were just as simple as "Assad is a bad guy killing hundreds of thousands of his own people, so we have to stop him to prevent further chaos" then its a no-brianer - lets go stop him. But the situation there is so much more complicated than that, I don't think any of us here really understand it all.
And just as a side point, I don't think world leaders are as powerful and knowledgeable as they might first appear. They are simply puppets for the "men behind the curtains."
Whatever happens, I really hope those poor people's misery comes to an end.
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matt
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Post by matt on Sept 2, 2013 21:53:50 GMT 1
Sorry for talking so much. I am not trying to convince any of you what is right or wrong. I agree with everything you said, Gary. That is precisely my attitude on most issues as well. This is a large part of how I came to believe that practice was my best recourse.
I would just say, there have always been alternative news sources, and twitter and other soical medial have driven this particular news reporting as much as any other corporation. What one sees in any international conflict, is people who are scarecly aware of where their income comes from, and how corrupt it is in general, instinctively jumping to the defense of their self interest. We live in a world that is supposedly post-colonial, most people have some understanding of how bad colianialism was and how much it screwed things up, but most at the same time have no desire to look at how much oil, and other natural resources and economic slavery of people in the poor countries contributes to their own lifestyle. We all beneifit from it, and we all earn that karma, daily.
So Westerners, Middle Easterners, Americans and people to our south, and Asians, they will not abandon their power structures. There have been a few instances where those same powers have been used for entirely different and more compassionate reasons. I sincerely believe this is a discussion about a proposal to do that again. And I am taking into account everything I think I know, and know I do not as a part of that. It is as much intuitive as anything reasoned, I think what Obama is proposing may help.
Part of that is the discussion we are having. Because there is a lot of self righteous attitude in people all the time, a lot of distrust, a lot self interest, and it all tends to be ignored or fought over.
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Post by Rudy on Sept 2, 2013 22:39:19 GMT 1
Sorry, I'm just venting my disappointment about Obama. If the most powerful man leading the most powerful nation on the planet is not capable of closing a prison which is arguably against all national and international laws, I believe he is an incompetent politician at best. He may have great ideals, but he is simply not delivering; that's my frustration.
Attacking a nation without providing evidence is BS in my view; what on earth is so important about the intelligence that its secrecy is more important then starting a war? It simply does not add up to me. You cannot send a criminal to prison based on circumstancial evidence only, but you can start a war on similar evidence? A possible war in probably the most dangerous and explosive area of our little planet... However much I mistrust Tzar Putin, I agree with what he says on this so far: he asks for evidence.
Not seeing evidence, I still have not ruled out an Al Qaida hand in this attack; just imagine if they had actually carried it out - it would have been a stroke of evil genius; using the US to wipe out Assad's regime...
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matt
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Post by matt on Sept 2, 2013 23:05:27 GMT 1
Do you have the same frustration with the Dalai Lama? What exactly has he delivered for the Tibetan people in regards to the Chinese problem? Nice ideals, but incompetent at best? Luckily, I have no real responsibility in the matter, myself. Actually, I think we all, each of us are precisely as responsible as Assad or Obama, or Putin. The reals solutions will come from that wisdom. But your attitudes toward Obama, seem way too easy to me. Remember them next time you deal with a true nationalist from any nation.
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dan
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Post by dan on Sept 2, 2013 23:49:14 GMT 1
Matt, go back a little farther than a couple of years with Syria. This is from a report by Nafeez Ahmed. I've skipped past a long section regarding questions--of which there have been many--about the recent chemical attack and where it came from. It doesn't really make sense to me that Assad would be so flagrant about using them when the UN inspectors were on the ground. The whole report is worth readiing, but here are a couple of excerpts. (Many citation links are featured on the homepage): www.nafeezahmed.com/
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matt
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Post by matt on Sept 3, 2013 0:22:18 GMT 1
Dan, I was aware of all that, and much much more. A lot of it has come out. Americans have been playing colonial power in the region for a long time. So have the Brittish and we are picking up where the Dutch and the French left off all over the world. Is that really your reasons for being against this? All I can say is there has always been a pretty big difference between the effect of the foreign policy of Carter, Clinton and Obama, then the effect of Johnson (a Democrat), Reagan and the Bushes, and it comes to a difference in motivation. But they all inherit a bad system that butters our toast. And all nations are doing this crap all the time. It comes back to what we can do to change our own minds. Of course that is the only solution. But there are too many liberals in America who don't vote, because of their ideals, and too many people in the world who want to generalize from one situation to the next. If you real believe, that Obama is playing Imperial America, then don't agree with him. I think he is guiding Imperial America, and I sincerely believe he knows more about the history of the region, good and bad, then most of us do. He would like to do the right thing, he just is as uncertain as the rest of us what that is. Syria and the US were very very friendly for a long time. So was Iraq. We helped over throw a very good government in Iran in the 50's and that was terrible and stupid. None of us should feel like we are less responsible for the situation for being a pacifist, or a European or an Asian. That is crap. That attitude does not fly. None of us know for sure what to do. Not attacking is a good instinct. But if you look at what European and American Industry and governments have done in the region and say, that is what Obama is trying to do, I think you are badly mistaken. We miss as many opportunities and create as many problems through mistrust as we do through misplaced trust. Start with the notion that America, and your own people, whoever you are, have done everything you can to create havoc in the Middle East. Then really look at what Obama has and has not done, and what he inherited. Then make up your own mind. None of this is news to me, I think he has a tiger by the tail, and wants everyone to be happy. In reality, we all are the same.
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gary
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Post by gary on Sept 3, 2013 2:57:20 GMT 1
Sorry, I'm just venting my disappointment about Obama. If the most powerful man leading the most powerful nation on the planet is not capable of closing a prison which is arguably against all national and international laws, I believe he is an incompetent politician at best. He may have great ideals, but he is simply not delivering; that's my frustration. Attacking a nation without providing evidence is BS in my view; what on earth is so important about the intelligence that its secrecy is more important then starting a war? It simply does not add up to me. You cannot send a criminal to prison based on circumstancial evidence only, but you can start a war on similar evidence? A possible war in probably the most dangerous and explosive area of our little planet... However much I mistrust Tzar Putin, I agree with what he says on this so far: he asks for evidence. Not seeing evidence, I still have not ruled out an Al Qaida hand in this attack; just imagine if they had actually carried it out - it would have been a stroke of evil genius; using the US to wipe out Assad's regime... Evidence for 98% of people seems to be hearing someone say something on TV. Or write something on the internet.
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Post by Rudy on Sept 3, 2013 8:57:44 GMT 1
Do you have the same frustration with the Dalai Lama? What exactly has he delivered for the Tibetan people in regards to the Chinese problem? There is a slight difference with the situation of the Dalai Lama though, the power situation is more then reversed: a completely powerless state of a few million inhabitants against the largest country in the world, it totally unrealistic to expect him to have won back Tibet. He built up more international sympathy for a small country like Tibet then anyone I can think of; which is probably the maximum achievable in the given situation. He has gradually made the government in exile democratic, despite most Tibetans being strongly against it! Besides that, he was extremely important in setting up succesful Tibetan communities in India, initiating many projects to protect the cultural (and religious) inheritance of Tibetans (at a time when most Tibetans were merely struggling to survive). He was instrumental in setting up a better education system for Tibetans then the average Indian can enjoy - not a small job considering the Tibetan refugees had to start from absolutely nothing in one of the poorest countries in the world. People all over the world consider him like the pope of Buddhism, which he certainly is not, but they respect him as if he is. Given the situation, I think His Holiness has accomplished close to the maximum that anyone could have politically achieved in the situation.
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matt
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Post by matt on Sept 3, 2013 17:18:29 GMT 1
Given the situation, I think His Holiness has accomplished close to the maximum that anyone could have politically achieved in the situation. You see, that is exactly what I think of Barak Obama, too. I don't believe he is enlightened, like His Holiness, but he got a lot done, before he was completely blocked by congress. !. Presidents have been trying to establish Universal Health Care in the US for over a hundred years, but the industries that make trillions on it have been too powerful and effective at lobbying. 2. Getting elected, twice, a black man, that is very good for America, and no one believed it could happen. 3. He ended the war in Iraq. 4. He set a deadline for ending the war in Afganistan. 5. He has used executive power to enact strict rules regarding auto and factory emissions, and used executive power to help young immigrants, and used it to de-prioritize the war on drugs, and change how we prioritize crimes that send people to prison. You have to have a good feeling for race and politics in America, to really understand the forces that work day and night here to undermine and defeat his administration. Some of these are responsible for our horrible foreign policy under conservative presidents. Since Obama was elected we have had Supreme Court decisions that give 1st amendment guarantees to coroporations, guaranteeing them all the rights and none of the responsibilities of an individual, and saying that money=speech, and is constitionally protected, which gutted 40 years of hard won election reform. Another rule disabled the voting rights act, that 99% of congress voted to reaffirm. We have had ultraconservatives spending over a hundred million dollars, each to shape congress and try to get him unelected. This is a very effective and liberal American President. What you are seeing is what always happens, they throw everything including the kitchen sink at these guys. Mitch Mconnel announced in 2009, that the goal of republicans in congress would be to make sure he does not win re-election. What they were really afraid of was his 80% approval rating. Go ahead and hate him. Maybe you don't really, but you sound like you do. Those of us who like this guy are very used to that. A lot of people are extremely offended that a liberal and black man is our president.
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matt
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Post by matt on Sept 3, 2013 17:38:05 GMT 1
The republicans that now run the House of representatives, and most state legislatures are not conservative, they are tea-party. These people are truly reactionary. Some people call them the American Taliban. No one could get progressive legislation of any kind by them. The problems that keep them in power are 1. Recent supreme court decisions, 2. The way congressional districts are drawn, (by state legislatures) 3. There is still a lot of race based attitude in rural and small town America.
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matt
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Post by matt on Sept 3, 2013 18:08:33 GMT 1
Reagan had the American Military and Inteligence forces fighting four wars in Central America that killed over 300,000 people. The problem? we were on the wrong side, supporting very evil people. Bush 1, manipulated Hussein and Norriega to justify invading Iraq and Panama. These were dictators he was personally responsible for puting in power. His motivation? The cold war was over, which meant a significant potential decrease in a nearly trillion dollar a year military budget, and control of foreign resources, the same reason they put people like that in power in the first place. Under Clinton, socialist leaning but stable governments came into power throughout Central America. You want to understand the difference in foreign policy between conservatives and liberals look at Haiti. What is happening in Haiti is always a sign of who is in the white house. But this is global. The difference is huge.
I recently read an interesting article, about how Obama, who was a Constitutional Law Professor has and is using his Administration to make it harder for Presidents to declare war. That is the first time, any President, conservative or liberal has worked to undermine executive power.
When you say that Obama is letting his ego rule the day, and is ineffective, you are promoting a narrative that people have spent over 100 dollars, over the last 2 elections, per American voter to promote. Sure he has an ego, but unless you believe a President can magically impose their will, you might not want to buy that narrative.
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