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Post by csee on Oct 16, 2014 14:53:13 GMT 1
I saw the main page of this site with a quote said to be by Dalai Lama and I quote
"Don't try to use what you learn from Buddhism to be a Buddhist;
use it to be a better whatever-you-already-are."
Un-quote
Perhaps it may sound rude so for that I wish to apologies in advance but in my current mind , I have no reason to agree with him therefore I am here learning to discover it and I hope to debate .
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Post by csee on Oct 18, 2014 2:01:59 GMT 1
I have posted this new topic for few days but seems there is no comment so far ...so perhaps I should start by sharing my current mind to create room for a debate .
Let study , he was said to be quoted / claimed to say " Don't try to use what you learn from Buddhism to be a Buddhist;
use it to be a better whatever-you-already-are
" un-quote
In my current mind , Buddhism is the only process of any living or non-living travelling back into the original state and it is natural .
So in my current mind , all existence regardless living or non-living like Coca-Cola can or rubbish is Buddhist .....and the only one is not Buddhist is Buddha so how could anyone or anything " learning to become Buddhist" as regardless what condition he in , he is always a Buddhist?
As human , it is a natural process of one realizing his own existence , realizing that emotion is the cause he existed and realizing the original state without emotion ....and realizing that as long as he attached to emotion , he will always exist..in short he will exist as long as he have the will to exist , have the desire to exist .....and as one awaken to this realization , he will realized the journey itself , the journey of how he is currently travel and he will travel into this journey without resisting it and as such , his attachment to emotion will be gradually reduced .....so as he travel further into this realization , all his desire , fear , worry , love , hate , anger , greed etc will all gradually and naturally decreased into a condition freedom of emotion - The emptiness and further into a state without condition - The nothingness ......
So in life as he awaken to this realization , he will live the life with less confusion ...and such realization could be closely described as " joy / bliss" or less suffering .
But ......Dalai Lama said to be quote of saying that whatever one "learned" from Buddhism , one should use it to be better from current condition....this seems clearly to me that this will leading to creation of more emotion , more desire , more expectation and as what I currently realized , this will creates more " human" and suffering or joy is the nature of this journey ......his path seems to be more inclined to current human culture and leading to suffering or even joy as human is always confused of own knowledge .
In my current Buddhism understanding , in deed whatever he say is part of his process into his own realization and still he is just providing a great learning lesson for all but in this forum , I hope to explore all reason , all mind as part of my own learning process and for that please do give your thought .
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Post by noessentialnature on Oct 30, 2014 21:52:36 GMT 1
What are you?
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Post by csee on Nov 1, 2014 1:05:43 GMT 1
I do not know..........should I know?
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Post by noessentialnature on Nov 1, 2014 15:54:35 GMT 1
I do not know..........should I know? If you are going to be a better whatever-you-are, then yes. I think the Dalai Lama is pointing to the question, what are? And that is not an equation with answer, but a practice, a way of being - a questioning open-minded way of being. Just because there is no final answer, doesn't invalidate asking the question. Or trying to answer. So. What are you? |
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Post by csee on Nov 2, 2014 3:48:33 GMT 1
I do not know..........should I know? If you are going to be a better whatever-you-are, then yes. In my current mind , I do not realized " to be better whatever I am now" as I just realizing the emotion now , such emotion is me ......is realizing me now without any aim or desire " to be better" .......so you ask me "what are you" ? and my answer is I do not know because the one I know is only " knowledge of who I am or what I am" ..........Buddhism is a natural process of realization of emotion and such process is beyond all knowledge or experience ...so I do not know and " forgot" the need to know it . I think the Dalai Lama is pointing to the question, what are? And that is not an equation with answer, but a practice, a way of being - a questioning open-minded way of being. Just because there is no final answer, doesn't invalidate asking the question. Or trying to answer. You had fill in your life with Dalai Lama ...is you who ask me and yet you referring to a third party for explanation .....if you agree with Dalai Lama , then that mind is you ......the emotion is you and no more Dalai Lama in you ........and if you already had faith based on your reason , you will see no point of questioning or no point to debate ..
In my current mind , the question is my teacher , I am learning from the question , your writing and my answer ...all is part of a learning lesson therefore there is never a final answer as all is in a natural / constant moving process of Buddhism ......there is no "final answer " not only to this particular question but to all happening ....to all question . In my current mind , questioning is not for an answer but is a process of discovering / learning ...learning is not out of desire but is a condition readiness of change .You ask me " So. What are you? " un-quote
My answer is still I do not know , and " forgot" any desire to know ........but perhaps if you ask me " what are you now ? " I could have answer you differently as I am the current mind ...I am now , not something that is permanent ..........I could just explain to you my current mind
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Post by noessentialnature on Nov 2, 2014 21:36:11 GMT 1
So. What are you?
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Post by csee on Nov 3, 2014 2:00:26 GMT 1
Perhaps you still do not understand me and I think I have to explain it again to you .
You ask " What are you " ? and my answer to you is I do not know ....this is because I am in a constant moving process of realization of what I am just like if I am on a moving train and if you call me and ask me where I am , I cant tell you exactly my location because I am always moving .......
But if you ask me " what are you now ? " I guess I could give you some answer based on my current mind .Referring back to your explanation , you said " I think the Dalai Lama is pointing to the question, what are? And that is not an equation with answer, but a practice, a way of being - a questioning open-minded way of being. Just because there is no final answer, doesn't invalidate asking the question. Or trying to answer. " Un-quote
If you are referring to " my practice or my way of being" .......frankly I do not remember of following any rules or guidance to live my life . Awaken to emotion and Buddhism , I realized I am the emotion and Buddhism is a natural process of realization of the emotion .......and if one awaken to emotion and the process of Buddhism , one will realized his existence , his cause of existence , his culture , his social livelihood , the knowledge , the way of living in his world ...in such realization , he will realized his struggle , his confusion , his path and the choices he make . He will realized " The Path" of living but in the same time he realized his emotion of choosing other path...he realized " no choice" but in the same time he realized there are " so many choices" created by his own confusion .....
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Post by csee on Nov 9, 2014 13:50:22 GMT 1
It has been about one month I posted this topic and I thought it will be a great topic for discussion , apparently I was wrong . I had given my current reasons of disagreement with Dalai Lama quote and I hope others could challenge it by sharing their reasons and from such discussion I could understand more .....my reason is never permanent but is always ready of changes as I am constantly in a motion of learning . Frankly learning is a condition of me now . Learning is not from my desire to gain knowledge to keep but is the condition readiness of change .
I notice there are many master here and since this quote is on front page of this website , this give me a reason to believe that many master here have reason to agree with Dalai Lama so for that I hope I could have a debate .
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jeff
Senior Member
Posts: 128
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Post by jeff on Nov 11, 2014 14:08:45 GMT 1
csee... It doesn't appear people wish to engage in this type of "debate". People tire of engaging in devil's advocate type discussions but if you have a sincere question I'm quite sure you would get an answer.
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Post by csee on Nov 11, 2014 15:50:32 GMT 1
csee... It doesn't appear people wish to engage in this type of "debate". People tire of engaging in devil's advocate type discussions but if you have a sincere question I'm quite sure you would get an answer.
Please be frank to yourself and answer .As I have said I am here to learn of your reason to agree with Dalai Lama so if you have reason that agrees with what he said , lets debate . I am here to challenge my view and always ready to change ........I never regards others reason wrong or defended my views ......
So tell me what makes you agree with this quote said to be from Dalai Lama ?
Sincerely
Ee Chuan Seng
Malaysia
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Post by Jeff H on Dec 1, 2014 15:54:11 GMT 1
Csee, I think your efforts to generate discussions here are sincere. Several of us have engaged you in serious discussion. We’ve heard your positions and expressed our own. But each time it comes back to you telling us it’s useless to swim against the current of a river that ultimately flows to nothingness. Your current understanding sounds like nihilism to me, not Buddhism at all.
I believe that change is possible because of the lack of inherent existence. I believe that there are wise teachers who have looked more deeply into these things than I have and who provide valuable instructions for discerning that which creates the causes of suffering from that which creates the causes for happiness. I choose to take a pro-active stance in life and make my best attempts at increasing the causes of happiness for myself and others. Your current understanding is of no help in that regard. That is the reason I am not interested in further conversation with you while this remains your current understanding.
But regarding HHDL’s quote, here’s why I agree with it. We apply Dharma to the person we are when we discover it, merging it with the natural process of change. Change necessarily occurs due to subtle impermanence and we strive to influence the direction of change with our thoughts and actions. There is great value in implementing the principles of Buddhism in our daily lives but there is no value in “being a Buddhist” as such. To be a Buddhist you only need to talk the talk. To practice its principles you must walk the walk. It’s the difference between buddhist as an adjective (describing those who practice Buddha’s teaching) and Buddhist as a noun (including those who consider themselves holy merely because they take vows and initiations).
(The Other Jeff)
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Post by csee on Dec 3, 2014 2:04:56 GMT 1
Csee, I think your efforts to generate discussions here are sincere. Several of us have engaged you in serious discussion. We’ve heard your positions and expressed our own. But each time it comes back to you telling us it’s useless to swim against the current of a river that ultimately flows to nothingness. Your current understanding sounds like nihilism to me, not Buddhism at all. Dear Jeff , first of all , I never tell you all that is 'useless to swim against the current" , I am just expressing my current views that that is part of a learning process , part of Buddhism ......Buddhism to me is not a form of knowledge that one could teach others on what is right or wrong , what is true or false ...Buddhism to my current view is a process of realization , is something you and me will naturally realized not by creation of desire " to realize" but by a process of constant awake , aware , realize , accept and continuosly aware .....in short , you will naturally realize your action to swim , your knowledge of the sea , your desire to the sea , you expectation of the sea and awaken to all these emotion , you will realized the sea is actually is you ...is always you ...and this process of awakening is Buddhism.
Many "Buddhism expert" already had the concept of Buddhism in them , they holds a solid knowledge of what Buddhism should be and with that faith of the knowledge they hold , they actually created Buddhism in them ......so they will choose what they want to hear , what they think they should learn and they will avoid what they think should be wrong .......my views on Buddhism is commonly rejected by these kind of people with these kind of " faith".......Dear sir , can you see your self here ?
In my current view , Buddhism is was never , is not and will never be any kind of faith ...Buddhism is you awaken to your own existence , is you awaken to the cause you are here , awaken to the path you are in , awaken to the life ............and as one awaken to this , one will realized the separation , the separation of what is the culture , what is the knowledge , what is the life , what is you ...........and one will live with the life not in the life ..........is very difficult for me to explain to you as Buddhism is not knowledge , I am here on learning not with desire to teach .......
I believe that change is possible because of the lack of inherent existence. I believe that there are wise teachers who have looked more deeply into these things than I have and who provide valuable instructions for discerning that which creates the causes of suffering from that which creates the causes for happiness. I choose to take a pro-active stance in life and make my best attempts at increasing the causes of happiness for myself and others. Your current understanding is of no help in that regard. That is the reason I am not interested in further conversation with you while this remains your current understanding. Thanks for sharing..........sorry in advance , as I have said many times I am here learning not teaching ......
But regarding HHDL’s quote, here’s why I agree with it. We apply Dharma to the person we are when we discover it, merging it with the natural process of change. Change necessarily occurs due to subtle impermanence and we strive to influence the direction of change with our thoughts and actions. There is great value in implementing the principles of Buddhism in our daily lives but there is no value in “being a Buddhist” as such. To be a Buddhist you only need to talk the talk. To practice its principles you must walk the walk. It’s the difference between buddhist as an adjective (describing those who practice Buddha’s teaching) and Buddhist as a noun (including those who consider themselves holy merely because they take vows and initiations). Your basic understanding of Buddhism is too different from mine and it will be a great source of learning to me if you continue debate with me .But if you still have the time and some interest ..I just wonder how one " to be a Buddhist".......as I currently realized there is no one , there is nothing that is not Buddhist ...the sun , the moon , human , animal , plant , micro-orgsm , table , pen, computer , Coca-Cola can , dust , beer is all Buddhist to me .....if you interest lets debate on the basic understanding of Buddhism...we can have the debate here or you could contact me via my email 1988csee@gmail.com is all for my learning process (The Other Jeff)
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Post by Jeff H on Dec 3, 2014 4:33:17 GMT 1
I agree that our views are far apart, Csee, but I don't see how further discussion will lead to any worthwhile learning on either side. I am very interested in deepening my understanding of Buddhism, but I don't understand why you think your current understanding is Buddhism. You recognize no teachers and no authorities. You have no lineage of fellow seekers who can vouch that they have adopted views like yours and found them successful for increasing peace and happiness. You have spent years trying to engage Buddhists in conversation and no one has acknowledged your views as Buddhist. You have nothing to support the claims of your current understanding except your own declaration that this is how things are. I don't know how things are, but I've found an ideal in Buddha, and a method in Dharma and fellow travelers like those in this forum, and altogether that seems well worth pursuing to me.
In the conventional world we have to be able to distinguish between this and that. "Buddhism" is an existent phenomenon in the world. It has many branches and variations, and there are debates and disputes, but nevertheless it is possible to discern that certain principles and practices reasonable fall within the realm of Buddhism and others do not. In the school of Buddhism I currently follow (Tsongkhapa's) we explore conventional distinctions and utilize certain concepts for the purpose of ultimately internalizing loving compassion and the view of selflessness to such an extent that the need for concepts and distinctions eventually falls away. At that time there is no Buddhism or non-Buddhism. But along the way there is, and within this method we can experience small but significant improvements in the way we interact with those around us.
Csee, I wish you only the best in your journey, but I'm afraid we are on different boats and this is not our time to grow together. Perhaps we will meet again.
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Post by csee on Dec 3, 2014 8:50:32 GMT 1
I agree that our views are far apart, Csee, but I don't see how further discussion will lead to any worthwhile learning on either side. I am very interested in deepening my understanding of Buddhism, but I don't understand why you think your current understanding is Buddhism. Seems to me there is so much room for us to explore on each other understanding and by avoiding to discuss or debate , we just creating more reason to attach to own reason ...I am here for learning and by exploring your reason , I will realize more understanding ...
Dear Jeff , in my current mind , Buddhism is realization not determination so if you had determine what Buddhism should be then it will be much suffering on your part if you decided to debate with me ...but as for me , I am in condition of learning , you like any other person or anything is a great teacher for me so I do not experience any suffering debating with anyone as I am just learning from such conversation ....I have nothing to gain perhaps just losing what in my mind ..........
You recognize no teachers and no authorities. I think I have said perhaps hundreds of time ........everything or anyone is teacher to me , so you or Dalai Lama or Osama or the Coca-Cola can is a great source of learning for me . You have no lineage of fellow seekers who can vouch that they have adopted views like yours and found them successful for increasing peace and happiness. You have spent years trying to engage Buddhists in conversation and no one has acknowledged your views as Buddhist. You have nothing to support the claims of your current understanding except your own declaration that this is how things are. I don't know how things are, but I've found an ideal in Buddha, and a method in Dharma and fellow travelers like those in this forum, and altogether that seems well worth pursuing to me. Dear Jeff , I never have any intention for anyone to acknowledge my view is Buddhist ........as I have said hundreds of time , that is my current understanding ..I stress on the word "current" because I realized Buddhism is a process of continue self realization ...no mind is for stay In the conventional world we have to be able to distinguish between this and that. "Buddhism" is an existent phenomenon in the world. It has many branches and variations, and there are debates and disputes, but nevertheless it is possible to discern that certain principles and practices reasonable fall within the realm of Buddhism and others do not. In the school of Buddhism I currently follow (Tsongkhapa's) we explore conventional distinctions and utilize certain concepts for the purpose of ultimately internalizing loving compassion and the view of selflessness to such an extent that the need for concepts and distinctions eventually falls away. At that time there is no Buddhism or non-Buddhism. But along the way there is, and within this method we can experience small but significant improvements in the way we interact with those around us. Csee, I wish you only the best in your journey, but I'm afraid we are on different boats and this is not our time to grow together. Perhaps we will meet again. Dear Jeff , we may be in different boat but to me that is so great for learning process ...if I see there is so much agreement in our view perhaps I will not be so much persistent .....because of we have different view that give me many reason to invite you for debate ....you have follow a common method of learning Buddhism but as for me in Buddhism learning is not resulted from desire to learn but learning is a condition of the mind one in ...learning is a condition readiness of change so with such different it is a great learning source for both of us .........again , I invite you for continue debate , if you interested lets continue |
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Post by noessentialnature on Dec 26, 2014 3:02:34 GMT 1
Hi Csee. I was reading this piece by Dogen and I thought it very much speaks to this discussion: www.raymenezes.com/RulesForMeditation.htmI wonder what you think of his arguments for meditation and continued practice? |
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Post by csee on Dec 26, 2014 7:18:35 GMT 1
Hi Csee. I was reading this piece by Dogen and I thought it very much speaks to this discussion: www.raymenezes.com/RulesForMeditation.htmI wonder what you think of his arguments for meditation and continued practice?
Perhaps let me try to explain my view via this example :-
If you have a desire to go to a place and you walk into a road as you choose ....you reach to a junction with many turns / many roads ...you get confused and you trying to calm your mind choosing " the right" path .......so you choose your path and continue your journey .....you walk and walk continuosly but regardless how careful you are , regardless what choice you choose ...you still never reach your destination .....why ? Because there is no destination .......the destination is you . Buddhism is awaken to this realization .
In my current mind ,one could meditate forever and will always found the "peace" or " the experiences" because that is " the fruits" of the meditation .....just like if you plan a Banana tree , you will have banana .....Buddhism is realization of the desire to plant , emotion while planting , emotion while waiting , emotion while having the fruits , emotion while eating the fruits ..... |
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Post by csee on Dec 26, 2014 7:21:13 GMT 1
Hi Csee. I was reading this piece by Dogen and I thought it very much speaks to this discussion: www.raymenezes.com/RulesForMeditation.htmI wonder what you think of his arguments for meditation and continued practice?
Perhaps let me try to explain my view via this example :-
If you have a desire to go to a place and you walk into a road as you choose ....you reach to a junction with many turns / many roads ...you get confused and you trying to calm your mind choosing " the right" path .......so you choose your path and continue your journey .....you walk and walk continuosly but regardless how careful you are , regardless what choice you choose ...you still never reach your destination .....why ? Because there is no destination .......the destination is you . Buddhism is awaken to this realization .
In my current mind ,one could meditate forever and will always found the "peace" or " the experiences" because that is " the fruits" of the meditation .....just like if you plan a Banana tree , you will have banana .....Buddhism is realization of the desire to plant , emotion while planting , emotion while waiting , emotion while having the fruits , emotion while eating the fruits .....Buddhism is realization not determination of what you learnt |
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Post by noessentialnature on Dec 27, 2014 0:53:38 GMT 1
In my current mind , Buddhism is a process of realization , not determination of knowledge so realization is something happens without being planned ...so if one have to follow rules for meditation and apparently with goals before even sitting down for meditation ...to me it is an expression of emotion and will lead into creation of more emotion / more suffering . Meditation to me is a name of awakening of mind , it can be while talking / walking / acting / in sports even in sex .........as one awaken to own emotion and the process of Buddhism , one will be in a natural condition of " meditation" , a natural condition of awaking without following any rules or guideline .
Perhaps let me try to explain my view via this example :-
If you have a desire to go to a place and you walk into a road as you choose ....you reach to a junction with many turns / many roads ...you get confused and you trying to calm your mind choosing " the right" path .......so you choose your path and continue your journey .....you walk and walk continuosly but regardless how careful you are , regardless what choice you choose ...you still never reach your destination .....why ? Because there is no destination .......the destination is you . Buddhism is awaken to this realization .
In my current mind ,one could meditate forever and will always found the "peace" or " the experiences" because that is " the fruits" of the meditation .....just like if you plan a Banana tree , you will have banana .....Buddhism is realization of the desire to plant , emotion while planting , emotion while waiting , emotion while having the fruits , emotion while eating the fruits .....Buddhism is realization not determination of what you learnt I agree in principle. But how should we navigate this awakening? Surely sharing guidance with those on the same journey. You seem to advocate the first step on the journey as throwing away the map. Getting lost (sex) or following a map (buddhisn) may help you find out about where you are. But the top tip has to be, first things first, look around. What kind of place every is your mind doing? The best tool for that is meditation. That is not Buddhism, or not it. It is simply the most direct way towards realisation |
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Post by csee on Dec 27, 2014 1:28:27 GMT 1
Dear noessentialnature , I have to reply you phase by phase as your difference of opinion is too far .....
You said " I agree in principle. But how should we navigate this awakening?" Un-quote , In my current mind , Buddhism is a natural process of realization not determination , is realizing your desire to " navigate" not the result of your navigation .......
You said " Surely sharing guidance with those on the same journey. You seem to advocate the first step on the journey as throwing away the map. Getting lost (sex) or following a map (buddhisn) may help you find out about where you are. But the top tip has to be, first things first, look around. What kind of place every is your mind doing? The best tool for that is meditation. That is not Buddhism, or not it. It is simply the most direct way towards realisation" UnquoteIn my current mind , all living or non-living regardless human , animal , dust , table , Coca-Cola can is all travelling in a natural process of Buddhism , nothing could escape this process so all happening / actions / re-action regardless the words from Siddharta or action of Osama Bin Laden or the nature of a piece of dust on the table is a great source of learning to all ........so nothing is special or above than others ...there is no map as all is leading into nothingness ...it seems you have faith in meditation and perhaps you will awaken to realize your emotion in faith ...after all that is part of your learning process , nothing is right or wrong as I am here just learning |
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