gary
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Post by gary on Mar 15, 2013 8:30:39 GMT 1
Isn't it funny how an awful lot of our suffering comes from our own expectations? Expectations are all around us; we expect our family/friends/loved ones to behave in a certain way, we expect events in life to pan out in a way that suits us, we expect great things from ourselves, etc. Then, when things don't go quite as we expect them to, we take it personally and it can often cause us a great deal of suffering.
Is it unwise to have expectations? Are expectations essentially based on attachment?
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tamara
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Post by tamara on Mar 15, 2013 9:56:43 GMT 1
Yes, Gary, expectations ruin our life. Life withouth the pain about un-met expectations would be paradise (or enlightenment). I`d go so far to say that ALL suffering is about expectations which are not met. To see `attachment` for what it is and not to be caught by it, does probably the trick. Now,...how to get there, that`s the question. Everybody has different methods. From Pema Chodron: www.shambhala.org/teachers/pema/shenpa3a.phpTamara |
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tamara
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Post by tamara on Mar 15, 2013 11:03:49 GMT 1
As we speak about expectations and attachment to a certain outcome, this fits again beautifully:
````Then Khandro Rinpoche says, “If I were alone in this room with nothing to do, I would probably rearrange this flower arrangement a little bit.” She sits back and looks at you again. “But it doesn’t need rearranging.`` ````
Tamara
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gary
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Post by gary on Mar 15, 2013 18:32:49 GMT 1
There is nothing necessarily bad about rearranging the flowers. As long as we dob't get hung up about it! :-)
I know if I was to attempt to explain to anyone I know that expectations are unwise, I would be told I lead an 'empty' life, that I lack ambition and perhaps that I am afraid of failure/disappointment.
So many people live their lives in in pursuit of something, always having to achieve or improve. And of course this is where expectations come from. Followed by tears!
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tamara
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Post by tamara on Mar 15, 2013 23:53:46 GMT 1
````I know if I was to attempt to explain to anyone I know that expectations are unwise, I would be told I lead an 'empty' life, that I lack ambition and perhaps that I am afraid of failure/disappointment.```
Yes, you probably be told that.
Some people would agree with you though, I am sure...
And then....many people would agree but would not tell it or would not even admit it to themselves.
And of course: One can do great things in life, but without being caught up and hindered by expectations.
``There is nothing necessarily bad about rearranging the flowers. As long as we don't get hung up about it!``
Exactly.
Tamara
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Post by Rudy on Mar 16, 2013 0:46:01 GMT 1
Good point Gary! I suppose expectations are integral part of nearly everything we do in life. Simply said, only babies probably have no expectations, but it also makes them completely helpless - as they don't know what to expect. In order to survive, I think one can argue that expectations, planning and relying on experience and what we have learned, or even what we do instinctively is quite necessary. Ultimately however, just about everything we do to stay alive by definition keeps us alive and in samsara. Renunciation - the wish to get out of samsara - is not for nothing mentioned by Lama Tsongkhapa as the first of the 3 Principles of the Path (renunciation, bodhichitta, realization of emptiness). When I try to look at renunciation, I see an ultimate kind of death-wish. Just about everything that has to do with staying alive is the opposite of a death wish - pretty black-and-white when I think of it. This is why I would not dare to call myself a renunciate or anything close (yet)...  |
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gary
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Post by gary on Mar 16, 2013 8:56:23 GMT 1
I see today is your birthday Tamara, Happy Birthday and have a great day!
I pretty much agree with what you say Rudy, I'll write a little bit more when I have some free time.
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tamara
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Post by tamara on Mar 17, 2013 3:04:38 GMT 1
Birthday, which birthday ? No, I do not have birthday today and does it matter ? This planet rotates somehow in 365, 7... days and we should celebrate this fact, aha. What I learned in the Himalayas here is the following: Most of the people do not know their birthday. They put a birthday date according to what is convenient at the given moment. They change this date according to what is convenient at a another moment. They change their name according to what is convenient at again another moment. A lesson in `emptiness of inherent existence`, indeed.  Tamara |
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tamara
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Post by tamara on Mar 17, 2013 3:19:31 GMT 1
Rudy wrote: ````Ultimately however, just about everything we do to stay alive by definition keeps us alive and in samsara. Renunciation - the wish to get out of samsara - is not for nothing mentioned by Lama Tsongkhapa as the first of the 3 Principles of the Path (renunciation, bodhichitta, realization of emptiness). When I try to look at renunciation, I see an ultimate kind of death-wish. Just about everything that has to do with staying alive is the opposite of a death wish - pretty black-and-white when I think of it. This is why I would not dare to call myself a renunciate or anything close (yet)...```` I would say to get out of the death-wish scenario (physical death, I suppose ?) one moves forward to Point 2: Just about everything that has to do with staying alive is based on Bodhichitta. Problem solved.  Tamara |
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graham
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Post by graham on Mar 17, 2013 18:33:50 GMT 1
Yes, Gary, expectations ruin our life. Life withouth the pain about un-met expectations would be paradise (or enlightenment). I`d go so far to say that ALL suffering is about expectations which are not met. To see `attachment` for what it is and not to be caught by it, does probably the trick. Tamara I think many expectations lead to suffering, but I also think they are necessary to survive. Like most things, there is a biological function to forming expectations (like expecting the sun to come up, planting a seed and expecting it to grow, expecting a growling tiger in the jungle to attack). Expectations are just mental shortcuts, like schemas, that make the decision making process much quicker. If we had to form an independent evaluation of every situation we encountered, as if we were experiencing it for the first time, we would be like little kids -- overwhelmed by tying our shoes. The problem is that these expectations are wrong in many situations, or unrealistic. Many expectations about people are formed based on misleading information, predominately stemming from our upbringings and interactions with family members. A lot of conflict occurs when we discover that other people often behave differently than what our experiences tell us. That's why it's so important to be aware of how the mind works -- sometimes on its own and without much intent on our part if we let it. |
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tamara
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Post by tamara on Mar 18, 2013 3:27:36 GMT 1
My view, which might sound like non-sense:
Graham wrote:
`I think many expectations lead to suffering`
All expectations which are not met in the right way lead to suffering.
` ...but I also think they are necessary to survive``
We are wired to have expectations so that we can survive as human beings on planet earth.
But are the expectations which we have in a deluded way (means clinging to a certain result) necessary to survive physically ?
Perhaps not.
Let`s give it a try ..... ROFL (rolling of laughter).
Yes, we expect the sun to rise every morning.
Let`s assume there would be no sunrise, would Buddha be disturbed by this fact ?
Certainly not.
Would we panic ?
Yes, certainly.
Clinging to some outcome and being opposed to another.
Since I went though the Himalayas in this bus with the Tib. Buddhist monk on my side who laughed each time the bus made a dangerous manouver I understand a bit better what `enlightenment` might be about.
Why did he laugh ?
I`d say the following:
At some point of Buddhist practice seeing how our mind resists to stay calm while expectations are not being met (in this case death by road accident) makes us giggle.
Tamara
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jeff
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Post by jeff on Mar 18, 2013 15:38:20 GMT 1
Is it unwise to have expectations? Are expectations essentially based on attachment? Gary you are soooo right and this is really wonderful to be reminded of. I believe that all expectations are based on attachment, as you say and we would be better off without them. That said, I agree it's something we all have as long as we circle in samsara and to some degree helpful when dealing with mundane situations. But it's a good barometer to gauge our progress. |
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jeff
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Post by jeff on Mar 19, 2013 12:13:51 GMT 1
This morning I was thinking about the constant "judgements" I make about people, myself, situations, etc.
Then I thought about this thread regarding expectations and began to see a relationship of sorts, perhaps a temporal one.
I wondered if expectations lead to judgements. After all, how could we make judgments if we didn't have any expectations?
Naturally, all of this is predicated upon a belief in an inherently existent self (then others, then mine, etc.) but that is often harder to get at.
Buddhism loves to provide antidotes so I wonder what the best antidote to expectations might be?
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tamara
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Post by tamara on Mar 20, 2013 4:54:02 GMT 1
Jeff wrote:
``I believe that all expectations are based on attachment, as you say and we would be better off without them.``
I think life in so-called conventional reality is impossible without expectations.
What we need to get rid of is labeling the outcome good or bad, i.e. attachment/aversion.
Tamara
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Post by Rudy on Mar 21, 2013 21:28:15 GMT 1
I think expectations are a basic survival instinct we have. They come automatically if you think of learning and experience. After we have learned by experience that we can burn ourselves when we touch a hot stove, we learn that a stove can be hot and we should be careful. The expection becomes that a stove can be hot, so be careful.
As such, I do not think that expectations are necessarily always evil; on the contrary, if you have had at some stage no expectations about Buddhism at all, I doubt if you would have ever continued in it. If we do not expect we can become 'better' people, and we can improve ourselves, then we would never make an effort in that direction.
What I think is the real problem, is that we often have unrealistic expectations. Most of our expectations are probably quite true most of the time, like pressing the light switch when you enter the house and you expect the light to go on. Where I live this is true 99.99% of the time. However, when I lived in Bodhgaya, India, it was true about 50% of the time...
So our expectations are simplified representations of reality, which help us do most of our every-day actions based on our experience, without excessive thinking or complicated decision-making. Advantage: it's the only way to go about our lives 'normally'. Disadvantage: expectations are simplifications and not 100% accurate.
Of course, from an ultimate view, just about all our expectations are about the world as we experience it: full of inherently existing things and persons. As things and persons do not exist inherently, strictly spoken, expectations are always unrealistic: not according to ultimate truth.
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Post by JohnS on Mar 22, 2013 2:36:23 GMT 1
Hello everyone,
Namaste,
I was just reading this topic and discussion and wanted to add, perhaps it's not so much the expectation(which is always difficult to avoid) but our attachment to that expectation(or outcome) which is problematic.
Best case would be to limit our expectations but the least we could do is be more flexible with the result we get and accept that we may not know what is best and that things change.
A little story, I'm sure some of you have read before, constantly reminds me of this--
There is a Chinese story of a farmer who used an old horse to till his fields. One day, the horse escaped into the hills and when the farmer's neighbors sympathized with the old man over his bad luck, the farmer replied, "Bad luck? Good luck? Who knows?" A week later, the horse returned with a herd of horses from the hills and this time the neighbors congratulated the farmer on his good luck. His reply was, "Good luck? Bad luck? Who knows?"
Then, when the farmer's son was attempting to tame one of the wild horses, he fell off its back and broke his leg. Everyone thought this very bad luck. Not the farmer, whose only reaction was, "Bad luck? Good luck? Who knows?"
Some weeks later, the army marched into the village and conscripted every able-bodied youth they found there. When they saw the farmer's son with his broken leg, they let him off. Now was that good luck or bad luck?
Who knows?
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Everything that seems on the surface to be an evil may be a good in disguise. And everything that seems good on the surface may really be an evil. So we are wise when we leave it to God to decide what is good fortune and what misfortune, and thank him that all things turn out for good with those who love him.
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graham
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Post by graham on Mar 27, 2013 13:56:47 GMT 1
Hello everyone, Namaste, I was just reading this topic and discussion and wanted to add, perhaps it's not so much the expectation(which is always difficult to avoid) but our attachment to that expectation(or outcome) which is problematic. Best case would be to limit our expectations but the least we could do is be more flexible with the result we get and accept that we may not know what is best and that things change. A little story, I'm sure some of you have read before, constantly reminds me of this-- There is a Chinese story of a farmer who used an old horse to till his fields. One day, the horse escaped into the hills and when the farmer's neighbors sympathized with the old man over his bad luck, the farmer replied, "Bad luck? Good luck? Who knows?" A week later, the horse returned with a herd of horses from the hills and this time the neighbors congratulated the farmer on his good luck. His reply was, "Good luck? Bad luck? Who knows?" Then, when the farmer's son was attempting to tame one of the wild horses, he fell off its back and broke his leg. Everyone thought this very bad luck. Not the farmer, whose only reaction was, "Bad luck? Good luck? Who knows?" Some weeks later, the army marched into the village and conscripted every able-bodied youth they found there. When they saw the farmer's son with his broken leg, they let him off. Now was that good luck or bad luck? Who knows? --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Everything that seems on the surface to be an evil may be a good in disguise. And everything that seems good on the surface may really be an evil. So we are wise when we leave it to God to decide what is good fortune and what misfortune, and thank him that all things turn out for good with those who love him. John, Your signature line is interesting to me. You believe in God? |
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johns
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Post by johns on Mar 27, 2013 14:39:14 GMT 1
Graham, That was in the text that I copied and pasted from the website where I found the story. After I posted it, I wanted to remove that section but couldn't figure out how to edit the post, if thats even possible. The quick answer here is no, I don't believe in God in the judeo-christian sense of the concept. But as the great metaphoric mystery of the universe that is beyond all conceptual thought and duality, maybe. I'm a big fan of Joseph Campbell. |
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graham
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Post by graham on Mar 27, 2013 15:17:21 GMT 1
I see. Just curious. It's something I tend to think about a lot.
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