Non-conceptual contemplation

Yes, I have wondered about this...

Yeah, Will's quote from Kamalisha is similar to how I interpret that. There is the practice of "holding" an object, which basically means you have it in mind as a thought to begin, the subtext is something like, "this is the object" then you concentrate. So you aren't thinking or analyzing while you concentrate, but that non-cocneptual concentration may only last a few seconds, then you bring your mind back to the object and concentrate again. Nonduality, with the object can be part of what I call the setup of the concentration. Mahamudra is a good precursor for this kind of concentration, because it teaches you to observe mental objects without contributing to or rejecting them.

I have heard Alex Berzin talk about holding, and have practiced it for years, so that is how I interpret non-conceptual contemplation. Any analysis occurs between the periods of concentration, but there is a sense that you are "holding" the object during concentration. Anaylsis itself changes with this kind of practice, a person becomes less attached to understanding or figuring things out, and more familiar with intuition and even direct perception. But thinking and analyzing remain good complimentary practices, you just learn to trust a larger set of skills and experience that can be applied in-between concentration.

It helps me when I feel constructs dissolve during concentration, because then I know I am working with a productive object. Teachings can be excellent objects, just a line of text or a short topic is good. But things that come to mind spontaneously are also excellent. After a while one appreciates that these are teachings as well. When energetic constructs dissolve there is a release that has been described as noetic, meaning that there is something from the experience that can be known or analyzed later.

Mahamudra is a good precursor practice, because you learn not taking or leaving--(not contributing to or rejecting), but you then add concentration (an inner silence or stablility) and for me often a brief intention to penetrate (know non duality with) the object, but that intention can be spontaneous as well.

From Tsongkhapa's Three Principals of the Path,

Appearances are infallible dependent arising; emptiness is free of assertions (of inherent existence or nonexistence). As long as these two understandings are seen as separate, one has not yet realized the intent of the Buddha.

When these two realizations are simultaneous and concurrent, from the mere sight of infallible dependent arising comes definite knowledge which completely destroys all modes of mental grasping. At that time, the analysis of the profound view is complete.

The above are good examples of objects and results of non-conceptual analysis. This is describing the process that leads to the union of wisdom and method.

The fists stanza above basically describes the meaning of union, saying the mundane and the ultimate views represent a unified reality. The second says when these realizations occur simultaneously, you achieve the result.

The next stanza seems to contradict the meanings of mundane and ultimate:

In addition , appearances clear away the extreme of (inherent) existence; emptiness clears away the extreme of non-existence. When you understand the arising of cause and effect from the view point of emptiness, you are not captivated by either of the extreme views.

Don't let yourself be impatient with these topics, please, it doesn't help. To me the above says form is emptiness and emptiness is form. These last few stanzas imply a lot of analysis of emptiness and the foundations for that experience and analysis are profound meditative states. These are a lot longer and much more profound than the brief concentrations I describe above. I don't want to discourage anyone, but I suspect one needs to experience them before these stanzas, where Atisha uses the phrase non-conceptual contemplation become relevant. It is good to read them, but don't worry if they do not make a lot sense. They will eventually, and until then you are building up all kinds of merit that will tip the balance one day.

In order to experience profound meditative states, I would say from experience that a person has to feel like they are finished with this life, and yet still have the luxury, somehow, to have life changing experiences. I think waiting for the right conditions in your heart, mind and life are a big part of the process, but it all works together. The merit you accumulate in the mean time also helps you organize your life around your path a little better. At the same time, it makes you more positive, which increases merit, calms you down and increases the frequency of silent moments, which stores energy. All these things build on and contribute to each other, but if you want to experience the final chapters of the Lam Rim then I think you have to be able to let go of "this life" somewhat. That doesn't mean spoiling relationships, it does mean having healthy boundaries and realistic views of the attractions of samsara.

So for all I know a person may be able to proceed to non-conceptual contemplation and avoid profound meditative states, because emptiness can be experienced and analyzed from a very ordinary mental state. For me it happened in a particular order, though, and some big life changing meditative experiences and periods occurred first, and this seems to be the order Atisha describes, and His Holiness the Dalai Lama once describe the first time he experienced emptiness, and it sounded similar to my own.

So from that I would say a person needs to break through some boundaries of ordinary experience. Once you do, they never come back together quite right, your world remains subtly but importantly changed. A person needs to decide on a subconscious level that they are prepared and ready for that. I would stress subconscious level with that. Don't try to fabricate the right conditions, just practice sincerely, have patience and enjoy your life with detachment.

Wonderful! Thanks everyone...

Tamara, I'm not sure if that's an great translation or even if those words were spoken by Atisha. I'm always careful not to take any particular set of words too literally since their origins can never be truly ascertained. Going back to Atisha and Nagarjuna and, of course, quotes from the Buddha, seems difficult. I believe the chance of error or misinterpretation is greater the farther back we go. However, when it comes to masters like Lama Tsognkhapa it is easier to have much greater certainty in what he actually said, imo.

Will, it is striking how Kamalashila says there is no middle or end to mind but avoids saying there is no beginning, which is the Buddhist position. I wonder why?

Matt, I love the way you bring your own experience into your explanations rather than relying on quotes. It is so much easier for me to relate to your actual experience. I have told you this many times. Allowing constructs to dissolve is certainly something that I have explored...

I have been quite fortunate to receive highest yoga tantra initiation and instruction and this tangentially relates to something practiced there. In HYT we practice the union of bliss and emptiness brought about through the penetration of winds as described in the instructions. The bliss generated is quite a powerful experience and then to "blend" emptiness can seem quite daunting since the bliss can overpower intention.

Lately, I have seen this as placing bliss and emptiness in the same room and allowing them to "discover" each other. Similar to how you might have 2 friends, each apparently separate from each other and inviting them over to get to know each other. What may happen due to compatibility is a "bonding" occurs through the process of familiarity and that bond has power.

Matt, what you said "In order to experience profound meditative states, I would say from experience that a person has to feel like they are finished with this life, and yet still have the luxury, somehow, to have life changing experiences". This is so perfect and it is exactly the way that I feel.

Of course, I'm a devoted husband, father, employer, etc... I would never relinquish those commitments. But I am definitely not seeking samsaric pleasures anymore. I'm simply not interested. I am done with that.

There is much more to appreciate in your advice, such as holding opposing conceptual extremes and allowing silence. There are many ways to approach the problem of converting thoughts to non-thoughts. I think it's important to explore the many methods and see which is most effective.

Thanks for all your kind words, Jeff, I really appreciate it. I came onto the forum today with the intention of deleting those posts, afraid that they were too arrogant, (who am I to say what people will experience or when?) Then I saw your reply and that dan had "liked' them, so that made me feel better about them.

Interesting thread, anyway. I hope people continue to add to it.

Hey Jeff,
I think that was a great question and got some great answers. I especially liked the Kamalashila quote and Matt's five recommendations.

Regarding that text, I think that if you keep your question in mind and read from v.45 to the verse you quoted, you'll see that it's all of a piece--but most explicitly verse 54:

Just as wisdom does not see
An inherent nature in phenomena,
Having analysed wisdom itself by reasoning,
Meditate on that non-conceptually.

It seems to me that this is like the instruction for that contemplation and that it's an interplay.

But, as he says in your initial quote:

...when
Bodhisattvas non-conceptually contemplate
This excellent teaching...

you can also go back and read from the verses on accumulating merit starting at v.14 to get the flavor of the whole teaching...the idea, for me, being his using the limitations of words to illustrate the limitless motivation and the skillful means of employing something like the result as living aspiration.

So, for example, as Matt wrote:
"Dharma actually translates as phenomena," consider how Atisha uses phenomena here:

15 If it possessed physical form,
The merit of the altruistic intention
Would completely fill the whole of space
And exceed even that.

16 If someone were to fill with jewels
As many Buddha fields, as there are grains
Of sand in the Ganges,
To offer to the Protector of the World,

17 This would be surpassed by
The gift of folding one’s hands
And inclining one’s mind to enlightenment,
For such is limitless.

One more thing. I think verse 56, which seems to me like "habituating" the stabilizing aspect

56 Therefore the Subduer also has said
That the great ignorance of conceptuality
Makes us fall into the ocean of cyclic existence.
Resting in non-conceptual stabilization,
Space-like non-conceptuality manifests clearly

sets one up for the contemplation of the next verse since that resting, with practice, reduces karma and the afflictions.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Voy5jpbpW74

As to line 56 Dan quotes near the end of his post, that seems different to me than what the question was regarding non conceptual contemplation, which implies an object and or intention. So I think that is a little simpler to understand, because "resting in space like non-conceptual stabilization" is the point of the meditation. So when the word contemplation is added, then there seems to be an object implied, that is when one could say you are holding the object, and that is a thought prior to concentration. Then some analysis could follow. For instance when one is working with union, concentration could be preceded by a thought of penetrating some object and releasing the suffering of sentient beings. That is just an example, but to me that is a good example of the union of wisdom and method, especially if you have confidence born of experience and analysis of what emptiness implies. But I am probably skipping forward with that example.

So the only difference between the two is the brief intention before hand. In one, non-conceptual contemplation, some kind of object is implied, which means there is something to hold and penetrate. In the other description, space like non-conceptual stabilization, there is no object specified. The concentration, or stabilization, are the same, one is preceded by various thoughts or intentions, the other is not.

The Dalai Lama has said that when one experiences emptiness, there is no thought because this is a non conceptual experience, but if one goes into the experience with a certain understanding, then one will be able to remember the experience and analyze it after.

Preceding concentration with an object and or intentions, and then following with analysis is how wisdom and method gradually meet and merge.

But for now I would just try to be clear what is meant by non-conceptual and that one can precede this with thoughts or intentions, and follow it with analysis. Keep in mind a long complex thought can occur in an instant, if you understand it. You don't have to repeat a whole explanation to yourself if you know what your intention is and why. But if you are analyzing, then this tends to be a more verbal process where you explain something to yourself, or ask a question and an answer occurs. If you think of Buddha, or your Guru, it helps analysis. You might even think of your non-duality with the Buddha or your teacher. This helps with many things.

Analysis usually deals somehow with non-duality, interdependence and emptiness. It generally leads one to how all objects, no matter how small or how vast are non dual and ultimately the same. Blending any practice with emptiness, even a brief thought of emptiness, makes it more powerful. Your analysis will tell you why.

Dan, thank you. I am very aware of the overall context and progression. Atisha most definitely is moving us very skillfully deeper and deeper, finally breaking down even wisdom itself to a non-conceptual state.
I just chose the one sentence as an example hoping to get a discussion going which would apply to several verses.
Honestly, what sticks with me is when Matt said "constructs dissolve". I really believe this is key to what I was asking. That is, without abandoning the object you can simply relax and allow a deeper level of awareness to pervade and absorb the object.

Now, the word "dissolve" is an interesting one that is used over and over. Sometimes we are merging calm abiding and special insight, method and wisdom (is more general), bliss and emptiness, Guru yoga, Deity yoga, [anything] yoga, even dissolution of the elements...

So it is really important to think about what dissolution means in the various contexts, imo.