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Doubts
Mar 30, 2013 3:42:14 GMT 1
Post by Brian on Mar 30, 2013 3:42:14 GMT 1
Hi everyone! It's good to be back. I believe doubt is essential to greater understanding and critical reasoning. If delusion is ruling our planet and ignorance prevails humanity, then doubting popular opinion is good. As far as doubting the Dharma, I don't think there is much subsance in questioning that realistically. Obviously it is workable and doable. Buddha comes closest to absolute truth than anyone else I have ever read about. I doubt my own abilities the most. Self doubt is very insidious. This is where our spirit comes apart and falls into dark corners. But we find comfort there in the dark alone. We feel safe like a caveman shielded from sabre-toothed tigers. Doubt is essential but needs to find middle ground between intelligence and courage. I think the greatest warriors of all time have mastered this "branch of the tree of life". Keep your head up and stay focused on Buddha. I think this is a daily ritual.
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johns
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Doubts
Mar 30, 2013 16:23:15 GMT 1
Post by johns on Mar 30, 2013 16:23:15 GMT 1
When we commit an act considered negative, because of its effect, then this leaves a mark or stain on our consciousness. The effect of this stain is it makes our consciousness denser and we feel more isolated, more separate and feel the afflictions of a samsaric mind, such as greed, anger and jealousy, and all kinds of suffering more acutely. Positive actions tend to effect our consciousness in ways that make it feel more spacious, open and positive. This tends to work against attachment. From my understanding, consciousness is not something permanent or inherently existent. How could a stain be left on it? There is a continuum of consciousness from one rebirth to the next and one moment to the next and it is a result of previous karma, hence the stains. But ultimately due to impermanence, accumulated virtue and over coming delusions, we can reach a state beyond the six realms, which is Nirvana.
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matt
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Doubts
Mar 30, 2013 18:26:15 GMT 1
Post by matt on Mar 30, 2013 18:26:15 GMT 1
How can consciousness be stained or marked? That is a good question. JohnS's answer was succinct, and I agree with it. My answer would be a lot more complicated and probably less helpful. Consciousness has aggregate forms and there are many kinds of mental states, so we are generalizing about all of those when we speak of consciousness. I think one could also divide all of those kinds and instances of consciousness into two categories, cognitions and perceptions we are having in the present and the effect of them. Buddha said that we are the result of every thing we have thought, or something to that effect. In my world everything is energy, and the source of that energy are the effects of some kind of cognition or perception. Remember that for Buddhists, emotions are cognitions, feelings are thoughts, so they are also cognitions. We could generalize all thoughts, emotions and sense or internal experience as some kind of cognition. When we think of energy in the West, we usually think of something ephemeral that is never lost, but changes states, and travels at the speed of light. For me though, my body and the world in all of its variety and apparent solidity is just one way of seeing/experiencing. Always there is simultaneously the direct awareness of my body and the world as complex continuums of constructs that are made of woven threads of energy, that is produced from some combination of some form/s of cognition or sense consciousness. The threads are woven into chords and the chords are wound and woven into constructs, and this is a deeper way of seeing the world. My mind and all minds that inhabit this supposedly material world seem to interpret and extrapolate our bodies and the world/s we inhabit from this vast thought/energy-scape. Even this deeper version of the world is utterly empty, though. Most of my practice is focused on realizing the emptiness of these constructs and the chords and threads that are their components. As I do this the constructs begin to dissolve, the chords unwind and the threads themselves lose their structure and become clear light. It is a very gradual process, but it feels very good because it makes my body feel lighter, my mood is more positive and my thoughts are more clear as the constructs unwind and dissolve. My perception of the material world does not change, but it becomes easier to believe it is illusory. So karmic stains or marks, these occur in the continuums of energetic constructs (which are generated from thought) and are what give them shape and form. Karma is a vicious cycle, the more negative actions in our past and present, the tighter the energetic chords are wound, and this makes our mental states more fearful, anxious, selfish and angry. We also perceive less, more materialistically: we perceive the material world and all of its troubles as more real. In these conditions we are more likely to commit more negative actions, and our thought patterns on all levels are producing denser constructs. I don't doubt the Dharma much, consciously. But I have a healthy respect for what we call the subconscious. Most of our mental activity is beneath our ordinary awareness, and this is where our desires and negative emotions drive us and give shape to our lives and our world. Beneath my present concerns, and "conscious" thoughts I know that doubt and projection are rampant. This is where I direct the majority of my seeing, and focus the majority of my meditation. So I think it is very valuable to meditate on doubts, in the hopes of uncovering them and letting them go, whatever our perception of the world.
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matt
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Doubts
Mar 30, 2013 19:09:27 GMT 1
Post by matt on Mar 30, 2013 19:09:27 GMT 1
To really understand karma, you have to temporarily suspend belief in an inherently existing self. Our sense of self is a valid experience, but it arrises out of mental constructs that are generated by cognitions of many kinds. Karmic stains produce the conditions that prevent us from experiencing our ultimate nature, the nature of our minds, which purified form is omniscient, clear and without self reference. Because it is like that, it is the embodiment (even when not confined to a body as we think of one) of love and compassion. Karma influences how we dream our selves and our world. It is directly related to our sense of self. The more negative karma we have accumulated, (always an impermanent condition) the more our sense of self will feel solid, real, confining, and isolated. The more we feel that way, the more likely we will think and act in ways that exacerbate it. So taking refuge is turning in a safe direction. Each turn of the wheel of the Buddha Dharma, works to unwind the past and lighten the present of sentient beings.
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jeff
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Doubts
Mar 31, 2013 14:07:53 GMT 1
Post by jeff on Mar 31, 2013 14:07:53 GMT 1
To take 4 words out of this amazing post seems trivial and unfair but I really think about this a lot. In essense, I think of my practice as expanding my vision/perception eventually to the broadest possible scope, which we call omniscience. Wonderfully, this can occur incrementally so we don't have to wait until enlightenment for the payoff. I think this also relates to the "higher perception" that is gained once we achieve "calm-abiding". "The merit gained in a single day by one who possesses higher perception cannot be gained in even 100 lifetimes by one who does not possess such higher perception".
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Doubts
Mar 31, 2013 15:08:00 GMT 1
Post by Rudy on Mar 31, 2013 15:08:00 GMT 1
Sorry, been too busy for a while to even visit the forum. I agree with just about everything that has been said so far. I think that doubt is good to the point of questioning everything you hear (including about Buddhism), and analyze it to the best of our abilities. Actually, very few things in life are 100% sure (if any at all). Of course it is quite valid to question the workings of karma: it is even tought that only the Buddha can understand karma completely! For me, it often helps to think with reverse logic; what else explains things that happen in a logical way? How can it be 'fair' that some ínnocent' babies are born in the best of situations, whereas others are dropped in the middle of terrible suffering of hunger, illness and war? If a God would decide on these things, then it would be a terrible being in my view - indistinguishable from the devil. If things merely happen by chance, that would mean that all logic and science are utter nonsense, as things happen by chance only. To me, that leaves only karma as a sensible answer as to why things like suffering and happiness happen to us. Study, try to visit teachings and meditate on these subjects, and our own answers will become clear. Once we decide what our answer is, try to live accordingly, without continuously doubting our own decision. Only when important things happen that make us doubt, follow the same process again; study, meditate and decide to the best of our abilities. Even if we do not manage to come to any conclusion, it is possible to consider if it could harm us to temporarily assume the existence of karma. Could that actually harm ouselves or others? If not, why not live as if karma exists?
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graham
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Doubts
Mar 31, 2013 16:21:30 GMT 1
Post by graham on Mar 31, 2013 16:21:30 GMT 1
To take 4 words out of this amazing post seems trivial and unfair One of the greatest gifts someone could offer me and my spiritual path is to challenge my beliefs and my understanding. I wish it happened more often.
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graham
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Doubts
Mar 31, 2013 16:30:49 GMT 1
Post by graham on Mar 31, 2013 16:30:49 GMT 1
Even if we do not manage to come to any conclusion, it is possible to consider if it could harm us to temporarily assume the existence of karma. Could that actually harm ouselves or others? If not, why not live as if karma exists? It's very good advice, Rudy. I appreciate it. I don't mean to isolate one aspect of your post, but this last comment is the one that draws my attention the most. One must understand that, coming from one religious background, it takes incredible conviction and faith in the teachings of another to abandon it, or at least make it secondary to another. I hope everyone can empathize with that. In fact, the penalties of doing so, according to some religious perspectives, are fairly dire (as silly as that may sound to many of you).
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Doubts
Mar 31, 2013 20:00:36 GMT 1
Post by Brian on Mar 31, 2013 20:00:36 GMT 1
I think we have to keep in mind that all teachings, regardless of where they come from, are simply just words, which are inherently empty. The spoken words of Buddha and the words of Christ are past and gone. They are only hollow reflections of their ancient wisdom. Doubt is mainly created through words in our minds. Remember that the English words we say in our heads is a human construction, not a true reality. So whatever is said in the mind should never be taken as truth or nirvana. It is just a very complex, abstract representation of communication. Doubt is always going to exist in an intelligent being, so just accept it, embrace it as a part of reasoning. Only a sheep would not doubt or question anything. Only have faith in something when you know it makes sense. Karma obviously makes sense. There is a cause and there is an after effect. There is nothing mysterious or confusing about that. If you doubt Karma then you are doubting common sense. And if you doubt that then you have good reason to doubt yourself.
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graham
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Doubts
Apr 1, 2013 15:33:29 GMT 1
Post by graham on Apr 1, 2013 15:33:29 GMT 1
I think we have to keep in mind that all teachings, regardless of where they come from, are simply just words, which are inherently empty. The spoken words of Buddha and the words of Christ are past and gone. They are only hollow reflections of their ancient wisdom. Doubt is mainly created through words in our minds. Remember that the English words we say in our heads is a human construction, not a true reality. So whatever is said in the mind should never be taken as truth or nirvana. It is just a very complex, abstract representation of communication. Doubt is always going to exist in an intelligent being, so just accept it, embrace it as a part of reasoning. Only a sheep would not doubt or question anything. Only have faith in something when you know it makes sense. Karma obviously makes sense. There is a cause and there is an after effect. There is nothing mysterious or confusing about that. If you doubt Karma then you are doubting common sense. And if you doubt that then you have good reason to doubt yourself. Well "said". Though your words are empty, I find them helpful I am still confused as to the physiological process by which karma works and how "stains" form (or if this is just a nice idea). Matt's explanation was helpful, although I suppose this could be picked apart as well. I agree that doubts will always arise, and that they can be a blessing or a deterrent, depending on how you look at them. Personally, I like the process of doubt and I enjoy being challenged because I feel it strengthens my understanding of complex subjects. I certainly do not want to be a "sheep", as you say, simply accepting what I am told because it sounds nice. If there's one thing I've learned in my years of struggling through Buddhism, it's that the more I think I know, the less I realize I actually know.
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matt
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Doubts
Apr 2, 2013 18:25:54 GMT 1
Post by matt on Apr 2, 2013 18:25:54 GMT 1
Yeah, at least some of what Brian said is exactly right. An explanation is not the same as experience, understanding is not realization. Because as Buddhists we value experience and realization higher than understanding and explaining, then we usually have some kind of evolving understanding for much of our lives while we are waiting for realization. Understanding this we know that our understanding is just an abstract concept and so is very different from the non conceptual experiences we are referring to. Because of this it is actually quite healthy to doubt our own understanding, and not confuse it with experience. I think most Buddhist practitioners are like me, they gradually accumulate experience that allows them to verify for themselves some teachings, and this lends credibility to those we can't verify for ourselves. If we can't verify it for ourselves, then we know whatever our understanding is, it is going to be very different from the experience, so there is no need to invest a lot of belief or even disbelief in it, you just put it on the back burner. Also, as Brian pointed out, non-conceptual experience can not be put into words. As Dzongzar Rinpoche once said, finally the world is inexpressible. So prior to realization I have gotten accustomed to putting a lot of things on the back burner, and concentrate on what is meaningful or practical for me to do in the moment. This can actually feel like faith, I am simply trusting the path to unfold as it will, and having the patience to wait for a lot of "final" answers. As far as the mechanics of the stains appearing on our consciousness? I have some insight into that based on experience, but I think the main point is that the isolation of our indivdual mind is an illusion, time itself is ultimately illusory, so when we harm another we are really harming ourselves and the effect of that is to cast us deeper into a belief in the Bardo experience we are having. Karmic stains are what perpetuate the Grande Illusion in my opinion. So look at it like that if you like. Your "original" (this is tricky because it does not really mean first in sequence, but rather beyond time and even cause and effect, it is the purified form of our consciousness) mind is clear, omniscient and filled with all positive qualities. Harming another is going to create the appearance of divisions within that. This on a vast scale gives rise to the sense of self in sentient beings. So it is not surprising that harming another effects your consciousness. In the same way if you cut yourself you will bleed. There are a kind of mechanics to it, but it all occurs in that deeper version of reality I was talking about. It happens in the mental continuums we call subtle energy, and that reality is so different from the so called material world, there is not much point in talking at length about it. The important thing to me, is that both versions of the world are empty, and so utterly transformable given the right conditions in our mind.
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matt
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Doubts
Apr 2, 2013 18:50:14 GMT 1
Post by matt on Apr 2, 2013 18:50:14 GMT 1
Right now we are creating the world. The universe of billions of years ago is as dependent on the karma and conditions of sentient beings in the present as we are dependent on those prior conditions. This is what interdependence really points to from what I have read and seen. Time itself is an illusion and a tricky one in the way it manifests. Our thoughts, feelings and actions now help create the world. Karma does not just work forward in time, but radiates outward from the present, and all of it is empty of inherent existence. Emptiness begins to look a lot like fullness when you have some experience with it, because it is through recognizing that your consciousness is empty, that you uncover its full potential. That potential is without bounds. Now can you see how impermanence and emptiness are really the same teaching? Your consciousness can not be harmed. It can have the experience of being harmed, you can suffer, but we have to believe firmly in the distinctions between our selves and others to have that experience. The antidote to this belief is fearlessness. Practicing Tong Lin, willfully breathing in the suffering of others, and breathing out your happiness to them, this is a great practice. You are afraid of hell, Graham? Most Buddhists fear hell. I spent a good deal of my life afraid of hell, and a few years terrified of these realms. Now I pray for rebirth in hell realms every day. I feel real compassion for beings who fear hell, and I hope one day they know the kind of peace fearless practice has brought to me. If we really want understanding, we have to embrace hell realms. Until you do, you won't really understand anything.
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matt
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Doubts
Apr 2, 2013 19:24:40 GMT 1
Post by matt on Apr 2, 2013 19:24:40 GMT 1
Given that you were raised some kind of Christian, and you fear hell, and this is effecting your understanding, (in other words you are like most Westerners), I think you should begin with Tong Lin. Pema Chodrin has published some books and tapes on this practice. You can learn about it at most Tibetan Buddhist centers. Look into it. It is a powerful practice that is a little frightening at first, so a great way to begin to cultivate fearlessness. It is really funny how so much of what obscures our mind is our own self concern. Loosen that self concern a little, and what you could not bring yourself to consider before will start to look not just reasonable, but very attractive.
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matt
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Doubts
Apr 2, 2013 19:32:12 GMT 1
Post by matt on Apr 2, 2013 19:32:12 GMT 1
Many of us may think we believe firmly in the Dharma, and so we are not bothered by doubt. But then we distrust our neighbor, and strive to avoid suffering. In reality we are immersed in doubt, swimming in it, and it causes us endless suffering. To really remove doubt would be to conquer all fear. That must be bliss indeed. As Buddha said, even the Gods do not know this bliss (that he experienced).
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matt
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Doubts
Apr 2, 2013 19:49:33 GMT 1
Post by matt on Apr 2, 2013 19:49:33 GMT 1
At the end of the Wheel of Weapons Buddha Dharma Text, it says, try to see that there is only one thought. In my opinion, all the teachings of Buddha are an expression of this one vast thought. Impermanence is really emptiness; interdependence was never apart from emptiness; a mind that knows impermanence is fearless. Without fear there is only compassion. Compassion, the wish that others not suffer, is love, the wish that they be happy. Finally, ultimately, the whole of existence, all universes, are this one thought. Why even calling it a thought is just an expression, everything is indistinguishable from nothing. What the text calls a thought can never be defined, any label is misleading. Fear for ourselves keeps us from knowing it. Doubt is an expression of that fear.
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Doubts
Apr 4, 2013 14:02:40 GMT 1
Post by Rudy on Apr 4, 2013 14:02:40 GMT 1
I am still confused as to the physiological process by which karma works and how "stains" form (or if this is just a nice idea). Matt's explanation was helpful, although I suppose this could be picked apart as well.Yes, true, but you you need to know exactly how and where and when the electricity was generated before you can switch on a lightbulb? Your question is actually very good, so good that there are several different mechanisms explained in various Buddhist traditions. The simpleton-version I prefer is that our most subtle level of mind (this is the very subtle consciousness that flows to the next life) contains imprints/potentials because of our actions done and strong habits that we have developed. Whatever suffering or happiness we experience, first, the mind needs to have a potential to experience it. That very potential is the imprint of a previous action done. The explanation of this most subtle level of consciousness though is pretty complex to describe in detail, but this is where the process of karma and rebirth are linked. Karma does not really make any sense without rebirth, and the most subtle consciousness can possibly be described as not unlike the description of soul in other religions, only here it explains why everything happens to us in a logical process. The challenges of this are that I cannot see past or future lives myself, I therefor cannot 'see' that karma works, and I don't even have a direct experience of this most subtle level of mind. But like in science: we can use logic and inference to see if and how things are related. For example, I have never seen the other side of the moon myself, but as just about all objects in the universe that I know of, everything has a front and back, so it's pretty safe to assume that there is a rear side to the moon. Similarly, if you can show me ANY other sensible explanation that explains why one baby only faces misery and the other almost only faces happiness in life, I'd be most interested to hear about it! (The 'explanation' that a compassionate allmighty God randomly deals out punishments to innocent people is not at all sensible to me... )
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graham
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Doubts
Apr 4, 2013 14:45:52 GMT 1
Post by graham on Apr 4, 2013 14:45:52 GMT 1
. Similarly, if you can show me ANY other sensible explanation that explains why one baby only faces misery and the other almost only faces happiness in life, I'd be most interested to hear about it! (The 'explanation' that a compassionate allmighty God randomly deals out punishments to innocent people is not at all sensible to me... ) That's assuming there is, or needs to be, an explanation. There's always chaos theory (through randomness comes organization). You mentioned that you cannot see the effects of karma and rebirth... is this something that can be achieved with practice and the right causes?
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jeff
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Doubts
Apr 4, 2013 18:28:39 GMT 1
Post by jeff on Apr 4, 2013 18:28:39 GMT 1
I am still confused as to the physiological process by which karma works and how "stains" form (or if this is just a nice idea). Matt's explanation was helpful, although I suppose this could be picked apart as well.Yes, true, but you you need to know exactly how and where and when the electricity was generated before you can switch on a lightbulb? In his teachings, His Holiness Dalai Lama stresses the complicated nature of karma, and the following quote by Geshe Rabten illuminates quite how limited our understanding is: There are three ways to understand phenomena: (a) Through direct application of our senses; (b) By means of logic and analysis as in the case of shunyata (emptiness); (c) Reliance on the knowledge of the Buddha. Karma belongs to the third category. Only the Buddha is able to trace all the causes responsible for a particular phenomenon such as, for example, the reasons for each of the colours in a peacock’s feather. While this might "feel" unsatisfactory you are already doing this every day. Do you believe there are "black holes"? Is it because you have seen the evidence or because you have confidence in western science? What about the vibrating strings that compose all matter? Eventually you will find that your practice will continue to progress without certainty yet slowly gaining confidence in many ways. First, there is the consistency of the teachings. Then there is the experience related to you by people you trust. Then there is the inkling from you own experience. Frustrating but there is no other way.
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matt
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Doubts
Apr 4, 2013 18:47:12 GMT 1
Post by matt on Apr 4, 2013 18:47:12 GMT 1
Grahm: Is this something we can develop with practice and the right conditions?
We practice to develop the six perfections, not to acquire particular skills or talents. In your own mind, I think, you already know why that is important and i believe we all have at our root, our most basic nature, the best motivations for practice.
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graham
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Doubts
Apr 4, 2013 21:58:13 GMT 1
Post by graham on Apr 4, 2013 21:58:13 GMT 1
Grahm: Is this something we can develop with practice and the right conditions?
We practice to develop the six perfections, not to acquire particular skills or talents. In your own mind, I think, you already know why that is important and i believe we all have at our root, our most basic nature, the best motivations for practice. I wouldn't say this is a desire to develop a skill/talent so much as it is to see reality more clearly.
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