jeff
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Posts: 128
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Post by jeff on May 5, 2013 11:43:16 GMT 1
Buddha saw the man-made concept of God as irrelevant. I take this notion one evolutionary step further and say that the God concept is inherently detrimental and harmful for society. If I could ever, anywhere, by anybody be proven otherwise...I would then bow down on my knees and pray to this invisible, jealous God. Until then, I'll try and follow Buddha's sensible directions. I'm quite sure you know many religious (God fearing) people who are kind, compassionate, generous, etc. and thereby accumulating much merit and positive karma. So I'm guessing you are saying that, on balance, you are seeing more destruction than good. If that's what you are saying then I see your point, though I disagree. In fact, you have made many excellent points here recently. |
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Post by Mandala on May 5, 2013 17:00:08 GMT 1
Excerpt: "If your whole body were an eye, you still wouldn't be able to see it. If your whole body were an ear, you still wouldn't be able to hear it. If your whole body were a mouth, you still wouldn't be able to speak of it. If your whole body were mind, you still wouldn't be able to perceive it. Because the activity of Bodhisattva of Great Compassion is her whole body and mind itself, it is not limited to any notions or ideas of self or other. Bringing it up in the first place is a thousand miles from the truth. Answering the question only serves to compound the error. Don't you see? Avalokiteshvara Bodhisattva has never understood what compassion is. All over the body, throughout the body. It just can't be rationalized. Deaf, dumb and blind — virtuous arms, penetrating eyes Have always been right here." mro.org/mr/archive/21-1/articles/dogens300.html |
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brian
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Posts: 83
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Post by brian on May 6, 2013 5:36:09 GMT 1
jeff wrote
I'm quite sure you know many religious (God fearing) people who are kind, compassionate, generous, etc. and thereby accumulating much merit and positive karma.
This is definitely true. Many people of diifferent faiths are very kind and generous. I won't deny that. Most people who believe in God have good intentions. I wouldn't call a Christian or Muslim a bad person b/c of what they believe.
But I think these same people who are kind would be so regardless of what faith they were or even if they were atheists. I think their belief in God is irrelevant to their actions. Perhaps they would be even kinder and happier without God. It seems they are compelled to give lip service to the dogma of their religion. I don't know. Maybe it doesn't matter what people believe. If someone wants to believe in supernatural explanations then so be it I guess. I also think some people just pretend.
I don't know why it bothers me so much. It shouldn't upset me if a mythology is taken as fact for many people. I think as an institution religion becomes dangerous. It can control people's biases and decisions of who to vote for. It is a form of propaganda in many ways that can cause great divisions and prejudices. The belief in God seems dishonest and to create alot of distortion of perception. It's just a misguided notion that gets in the way of reason and rationale. I think the world would be a better place without God being used as an excuse or reason for everything. Truth would come out more without this delusion for people to hide behind.
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Post by Mandala on May 6, 2013 13:23:38 GMT 1
I don't know why it bothers me so much. You'd be bored, otherwise. Being self-righteous rewards you with dopamine. |
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jeff
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Posts: 128
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Post by jeff on May 6, 2013 15:44:56 GMT 1
But I think these same people who are kind would be so regardless of what faith they were or even if they were atheists. Some of them probably but surely many of them, like Buddhists, go for refuge (but for them in God), out of fear and faith, which means they believe there are consequences for their actions. However, I had a disagreement in my study group with those who implied that non-Buddhist teachings are "as good" as Buddhist teachings. I feel that since the Dalai Lama gives the (politically correct) advice not to switch religions but to be the best "whatever you already are" many people think he is saying this is as effective as Buddhism. However, I think the Dalai Lama gives that advice out of his skillful understanding that the correct practice of any of the major religions will definitely result in the collection of merit and positive karma and the best practice is one the person will adhere to, which is sometimes the inherited one. I don't think His Holiness believes that practicing Judiasm, for instance, alone can lead to liberation. Only the direct perception of emptiness. Honestly I don't know what the world would look like without religion but the time spent thinking about it is probably better spent in practice... |
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brian
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Posts: 83
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Post by brian on May 6, 2013 18:44:36 GMT 1
Addressing Mandala's statement, I don't critique world religions out of self righteousness. I speak from experience. I know the feelings of frustration and forcing myself to believe the unbelievable as a Catholic. I felt ashamed and guilty for everything I did. I was always conflicted in my faith. I pity others in the same situation as I'm sure I was not alone in this Christian dilemma. As a buddhist, it is different. Yes, of course I still have mood swings and such but it is not over buddha's teachings, but rather my personal issues. It seems my Catholic faith actually intensified my faults and weaknesses rather than pacify them. I would agree with Jeff in that time spent practicing is much better than dreaming what-ifs. And I agree about Buddha's teachings being much superior. It is polite to say religions are all the same but that is just a trite platitude. How could that be honest when none of the Abrahamic religions even mention emptiness, enlightenment or stress the importance of meditation. Instead they stress subservience and obedience to an invisible man in the sky who will send you to hell for eternity if you rebel against him. Big difference lol. Part of "waking up" is realizing the effects of social conditioning. Christianity in the western world is part of that social conditioning which has had 2000 years to ingrain itself into the fabric of public consciousness. It's taboo to state the obvious and glaring logical fallacies of this religion. It someone gets offended, then that's their problem. I don't get offended when someone says reincarnation is silly, or Buddhism is a cult, or that Buddha was a fat, lazy slob. I laugh about it and give them the correct understanding. Christians get offended easily because the criticism always hits an overly sensitive nerve of truth. Buddhism openly welcomes criticism and scrutiny. Christianity and Islam clearly do not. This fact alone should raise red flags. These two religions are fear-based in their fundamental dogma, which make them quite powerful tools. Buddhism is freedom-based, which makes it more lax and underestimated. Buddhism always seeks inner truth, what these other religions seek is their own scripturally fabricated "truth". (which is derived from superstitious myths). Eastern spiritual philosophies are very different than western ones at their deepest core value. That's just the way it is. Anyone who says otherwise is a liar, misinformed or being 'politically correct'. But I'm totally done with this topic now. I'm focusing my thought and energy toward practicing the dharma.  |
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Post by Mandala on May 7, 2013 13:12:57 GMT 1
Addressing Mandala's statement, I don't critique world religions out of self righteousness. I speak from experience. Excerpt: How many times have you asked someone how they know something is true only to get this response - "it's been my experience"? Whether it is Codependency, Addiction, Chronic Depression, or Anxiety and fears - Our brain filters data in ways that help us create self-fulfilling prophecies and self-reinforcing cycles. The thing to do is understand how thought creates reality and develop a way of thinking...or filtering data...that helps us create the life we want! The only way I know of to do that is to establish a new steady-state called Recovery. www.internet-of-the-mind.com/thought_creates_reality.html |
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jeff
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Posts: 128
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Post by jeff on May 7, 2013 14:22:02 GMT 1
It is polite to say religions are all the same but that is just a trite platitude. I don't think any Buddhist master would say that all religions are the same regarding potential because it's not true. They would say that, when practiced properly, they all lead to positive outcomes and that believing in "cause and effect" is better than not believing it. Glad to hear your focus is back on Dharma. Me too... Jeff |
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brian
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Posts: 83
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Post by brian on May 7, 2013 21:13:42 GMT 1
I went to an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting today after not going in quite a while. It felt good. In the meetings it is very common for people to talk about God. It's part of the 12 steps to accept a Higher Power of your own understanding.
Some may talk about Jesus or the Devil once in a while also as good and bad influences in their life. I think there could be some psychological benefit in personifying the Tao or "It". God is kind of like a mirror of one's best self and the Devil is the reflection of one's addiction.
If the God concept is used as a helpful tool like this in one's recovery then this is the positive aspect of a monotheistic faith that everyone talks about. In this way Christianity can be quite harmless and comforting. It's kind of a simplification of complex emotions and feelings, which can create a "calm abiding" through prayer and giving up one's self-will to God.
So my grievances toward my former religion were allayed and 'let go' pretty much today. Even though I don't percieve what they are speaking of as literally true, as in the Devil was tempting me to drink, I do see that type of communication as a skillful social means for guidance, inspiration and restraint.
And I always liked Jesus, although I see him as a bodhisattva and nothing supernatural or biblical. Over time, it's been a difficult transition for me trying to be a devout Catholic, to becomiing totally disillusioned with it, and then trying to follow the Noble Eightfold Path. Part of my growth will be letting go of the past, letting go of my feeling of being lied to by the church, and letting go of my judgments and scorn for it. I accept it for what it is, which isn't so bad.
I told some friends a while ago, "I believe in Jesus but I don't believe in God". They looked at me funny and said, "That's impossible, they go hand in hand". I said, "You assume too much, study the buddhadharma". ;D
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matt
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Post by matt on May 8, 2013 0:47:06 GMT 1
Great work, Brian, you're really making progress. |
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