Buddhism... life hating?

graham wrote

Buddhism has a pessimistic view on anything samsaric

Buddhism doesn't have a pessimistic or optimistic view on anything. It is neutral(Middle Way), right view of samsara. Simply observant as in seeing the seer. Pessimism would only come from judgment and misperception. But I understand the misunderstanding of viewing sexuality as something "wrong" or "sinful" when ego is what seeks gratification.


Does Buddhism really hate the perpetuation of life? Getting married and raising a family does not really seem to be a noble goal for one's life in Buddhism.


I think abstinence is directed toward monastic life. I'd say it's fine for lay Buddhists to sleep with their partner and enjoy various pleasures in life.....in moderation, which one has to find and know and follow that limitation through his own wisdom.

I think what Buddha is teaching is that the very emptiness, impermanence, wisdom, and compassion found in the meditative state of mind is a healthy pleasure and joy IN ITSELF. And it's completely free! No cost, no hangovers, no problem.

Buddhism is not life hating. It is life EMPOWERING, AFFIRMING, APPRECIATING, everything opposite of hating. It only appears as a delusion to be pessimistic. Every serious religion will teach the temperance of all our appetites, whether sexual, or concerning food and drink, etc.

I also think in a sense that it's kind of like not letting the body control the spirit. It is SO EASY to become a slave of desire. Yet this unquenchable desiring, constant yearning and discriminatory wanting IN ITSELF is what causes much of our suffering in the mind, in our relationships, lives, everywhere. This is a bedrock rule of the buddhadharma. Desire causes suffering, it causes selfishness, it creates compulsion, addiction and the list of things can go on and on. THis is the most difficult teaching of our Master to follow and practice. I know from experience b/c it is my own greatest downfall. It is a noble truth which The Enlightened One has given to us and many other spiritual masters from around the world agree upon.

So I'd say that the comment you read on the other forum of Buddhism being life hating is complete hogwash lol. If anyone seriously thinks that, then there is still an ocean of wisdom for one to learn about the grace of Buddha.

This question actually refers to renunciation and all the misconceptions we usually have about it.

Renunciation does not mean that pleasure is forbidden. However, it is very, very easy for most of us to really enjoy something and getting attached to it / wanting more of it; and that's where the problems begin. As an exaggerated example, it is not unlike using hard drug: there is really not much of a problem of using them once, the problem is that we easily get addicted to them to a level we throw our whole lives away because we become slaves of the drug.

I also like an alternative translation of 'renunciation' which may be much closer to the actual meaing in Buddhism, and that is a mouthful: 'wish for definite emergence'. Or in other words, seeing how relative all the little pleasures in life are as compared to an eternity without any problems or pain. Seeing this, one can decide to make effort to go for eternal happiness. Now this last choice is definitely a radical one, as it is about a complete ending of life - including rebirth. You could call this a pessimistic view of life, but that's all just relative; you could also call it the realization that there are states of existing which are a lot better then anything in life.

Why is it so hard to go for this goal? All we know is about life! I have no experiences outside my experiences in life. Even if I could remember past lives, they are all still experiences within life. The problem we face is that we can only take it on faith that something exists which way surpasses life without us having any direct experience of it - a difficult leap of faith for sure (at least for me).

In that sense, Buddhism is certainly radical, as it focusses on a much bigger picture then just our (current) life. But so do Christianity, Islam and any of the other major world religions...

More random thoughts...
On the other thread Tamara said in relation to friendships: "But for me I say: Discard it, discard and look at the big picture."

If any non-Buddhist and many Buddhists read this they might surely believe that Tamara is going too far. That is the trouble when trying to "bridge" the Buddha's view with one who is trapped in conventional existence.

I see this as an insurmountable task and therefore not one in which I would engage.

Of course, that doesn't mean we shouldn't interact with people or try to help them to understand the "big picture", as Tamara puts it. But it does mean that we should not tie our expectations and practices to the ability of others to understand the pure view. It's not going to work.

That is one of many reasons why the Buddhist path, and especially the Bodhisattva path, requires such extraordinary courage.

I could not agree more. I have been reading more about the latter lately, and I have thought to myself several times "this is what true courage is". More so than being a soldier or freedom fighter or anything else requires.

Wonderful responses, all. It's kind of funny how many different ways one can look at this.

For my part, I thought of the first of the four thoughts which turn the mind away from samsara: the difficulty of attaining the freedoms and advantages of this precious human life.

And when one considers, for example, that Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche is the son of Thinley Norbu Rinpoche, who was the son of HH Dudjom Rinpoche, it seems that the perpetuation of life can be extremely helpful for spreading the dharma in a world which seems to continuously devise, plan and build upon its manifold errors. In other words, because of samsara, and because a buddha has appeared in this world and taught it, the dharma proliferates as well.

I think what's important to consider about desire is that, acting on it alone, its seeds tend to ripen in realms other than desire. Instead, we cultivate desire with dharma practice...keeping it "local."

Earlier tonight, after reading an online biography of Saraha, I read another about Patrul Rinpoche and this quote seems relevant to what everyone has written on the topic so far:

"The woman teacher Khandro Rinpoche quotes from The Words of My Perfect Teacher, as follows:

'Patrul Rinpoche talks about four main thoughts that should precede every meditation, every moment of contemplation: first, the preciousness of human existence; second, impermanence; third, the suffering of samsara; and fourth, karma, or cause and effect. These four reminders are said to be the main foundation of contemplation. Contemplating them, the meditator is truly able to remain without fabrication, or fabricated beliefs about his or her own spiritual path and spiritual motivation. They should truly enable practitioners to be completely honest with themselves. In spiritual practices, we sometimes talk about benefiting sentient beings, or making life more meaningful, or being able to truly do something that is good. In the beginning, our motivation may be very clear, but very soon our habitual patterns return. These habitual tendencies re-create the same patterns of living, thinking, doing, or saying things. Because of this the pull of our habitual patterns, or tendencies, does not allow us to remain in touch with that pure motivation, with what is really beneficial and good. To overcome such tendencies, the Four Reminders discussed and practiced by Patrul Rinpoche, are essential.'"

www.dharmafellowship.org/biographies/historicalsaints/dza-patrul-rinpoche.htm

Renunciation has always been a hard concept for me to appreciate and embrace. I told my friend Lama Jhampa Shaneman about this once and he suggested substituting the phrase "spiritual freedom," any time I heard renunciation. That helped, and also helpful was Lama Yeshe once emphasized we are renouncing samsara. So I often think about it as renouncing delusion.

I agree it takes a lot of courage to aspire for experiences that are unfamiliar.

I do not think Buddhism is life hating. I think it often contradicts Western notions of love, that have more to do with attachment than wanting others to be happy. So the messages and teachings are subtle, and easy to misconstrue. It is like we have to create a new context for them, and that takes experience. So if some Westerner wants to misconstrue the teachings it is easy to do so.

But I have also struggled at times with the feeling that Buddha is teaching us to turn our back on the world. I think what he really teaches is that selfishness and delusion have caused us to assemble a false view of our selves and our world, and this causes unnecessary suffering for us and others. When you get to the heart of the teachings, there is this tremendous ease that gives one the sense of what it means to love selflessly, and that is joy.

Good thread.

I see it a little differently. From what I have learned in teachings, to a Buddha we do not "look" like anything, they recognize enlightenment in all sentient beings, recognize a fact to be a fact. That is the level of engagement and commitment of the Bodhisatvas and Buddhas. Perception at that level is transformative, because of the union of wisdom and method. So imo, whatever renunciation means in the context and languages of the Dharma, we should not confuse it with self-loathing. A realistic view of our current limitations is positive, but a negative view of the self is as much attachment as ego compensation is. Experienced meditators often feel disgust with delusion, but that should also remind us that we and all sentient beings are empty, and so imminently transformable. Whatever the issue, there is always a middle way that is non-conceptual, directly between two opposite conceptual extremes.

Is renunciation a tool or a goal ?

While on the path it can be used as a tool.

Is it a goal ?

Hmmm, probably yes, but I tend not to prioritize it because for me understanding
and `directly perceiving emptiness ` is the highest goal.
Renunciation follows suit.


Tamara

I think we all agree that to think Buddhism is "life hating" is ridiculous. If there were any religions out there that are life hating I would think Islam stands out in stark contrast with it's suppressive rules and archaic, patriarchal ideas. Buddha liberates us from conventional standards of the world. He doesn't care about political correctness or propriety. He tells it like it really is. Belief in ANY supernatural causes is a delusion. It is a self comforting lie. Belief in anything outside of natural experience and scientific inquiry can only be called pure fantasy. These types of delusions are what is hindering this planet from progressing into a higher evolution. It is the false pretense of knowledge that creates division and duality between nations and neighbors. This is why I find spreading the dharma amongst pretentious right wingers and unfocused left wingers such a middling ground. Morals and family values are quickly eroding away while we sit back and pontificate about celestial afterlives. How ridiculous is that?

Indulge in sex, indulge in alcohol and games, indulge in sloth and greed, indulge in hypocrisy and selfishness. See where that gets you. That is the American way. That is the consumer's way. Corporations and big business are absolutely destroying the very fabric of life for middle class citizens. And the sad part is that through very clever and subversive propaganda, the simple-minded victims of oppression are supporting the billionaire oppressors! I see it everywhere with people's strong opinions and tough political stances. I have to laugh at them for being so foolish and self defeating. If they only knew how much of a manipulated puppet they really were through mass media and televised demigods. It's not Truth that people want. It's not Truth that sells. Whatever feeds the ego is what sells. A comforting, "God given" lie is so much easier to spread like a virus than a serious nitty gritty truth that exposes our slavish humanity. Buddha exposed the caste system in India. But it still goes on today in much more deceptive forms. I have lost faith in the system because it continually fails in justice.