dan
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Post by dan on Aug 8, 2013 12:00:34 GMT 1
Brian said,
But what I hear you really saying is, "Samsara is suffering."
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dan
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Post by dan on Aug 10, 2013 20:02:16 GMT 1
I appreciate the discussion on the concept of renunciation, since it's something that I too haven't focused on directly very much.
In briefest of terms, I think it's simply decreasing and ceasing negative actions of body, speech and mind while increasing and starting the positive ones; or decreasing attachment, increasing lovingkindness and compassion for others.
Tamara wrote:
I've seen buddhahood mentioned as the supreme renunciation, presumably because a subtle attachment to self is the last aspect of experience to be relinquished.
And perhaps for people like me, renunciation begins before we come to Buddhism. We're already in "seek mode" by that time, having given up on this, that and the other as means to happiness or contentment or whatever worldly goal.
But as far as the path goes, renunciation begins the moment we take refuge, since that is a kind of acknowledgement that we are giving up worldly ways in our approach to happinesss and accepting the jewels of practice that the Dharma provides. And, again, for people like me, "the moment we take refuge," may happen over and over and over...which, in itself, is a form of renunciation in that we could be busy thinking or doing many, many other things during those moments.
You also wrote:
As renunciation is based on the illusion of a self, it seems to me that what you're saying when you say it "follows suit," is that, with practice there is less of a self as more and more of its beliefs and opinions, with their attendant emotions, fall away. Or that, as a result of practice, when something that was an issue the day before rears its head today, it's hardly noticeable.
Or maybe you are implicitly suggesting, as Je Tsonghkapa says in The Three Principal Aspects of the path, that "when the thought aspiring for liberation arises day and night, At this point true renunciation has arisen."
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brian
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Post by brian on Aug 12, 2013 2:49:27 GMT 1
Thanks dan. I have a bad tendency to rant or vent on this forum which is something I personally need to renounce. Yet it bothers me how monotheism dominates spiritual thought and many times shuts out Buddhism and Eastern thought in the West. "Finding God" seems to have become so cliché that I seriously doubt the validity of it unless I see an extraordinary change in one's attitude which is close to nil of happening in my own observations. Believers know all the indoctrinated words to say but their actions usually fall far short of their lofty rhetoric. If God is so great then finding and "knowing" Him should be truly revolutionary. Finding God is akin to being enlightened in Buddhism, but for the lay Buddhist claiming to be enlightened is highly doubted while a monotheist claiming to 'know God intimately' is readily accepted. What's up with that? I think Buddhism is inherently more honest than Monotheism by it's respective adherent's use(or misuse)of language. Perhaps I am wrong but this is what I generally perceive around here.
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graham
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Post by graham on Aug 18, 2013 16:11:04 GMT 1
Normally I love these, but this one seriously made me laugh at how ridiculous it was. I guess Gyalse Rinpoche and I will have to disagree on this one, because I will never view the world this pessimistically. We wouldn't have technology, cures for diseases, space travel, or almost any other great human achievement if this is how everyone felt.
"Rigpa Glimpse of the Day
August 18
Planning for the future is like going fishing in a dry gulch;
Nothing ever works out as you wanted, so give up all your schemes and ambitions.
If you have got to think about something—
Make it the uncertainty of the hour of your death.
GYALSÉ RINPOCHE"
Edit: Just to add to this and some earlier comments about renunciation... I interpret renunciation and the four noble truths differently I guess. I don't think life IS suffering, as is stated in the first noble truth. I think life HAS suffering. In my view, one should not seek to renounce samsara... they should eliminate their clinging to it. To quote Gil Fronsdal, "It's only a hindrance if it's a hindrance."
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matt
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Post by matt on Aug 18, 2013 20:28:52 GMT 1
Well, Buddha said that the suffering of birth, old age, sickness and death are inevitable in samsaric life. I can't see how this can be reasonably disputed? Unless one thinks there is no suffering in birth? In the context of cylcic life, a belief in rebirth, that the mind is caught in endless cycles of life and death that lead to these over and over is a matter of belief.
What I think we have here is a tale of two perspectives. On the one hand the Buddha, who claimed to have remembered all of his past lives, and on the other, Graham, who is in (the first third of?) a more typical, modern, Western life. Westerners tend to have a pretty materialistic outlook, and tend to be optomistic that a life well lived will leave one with a sense of fulfillment. I don't see any fundamental contradiction between the two views. One is far more vast, has a far greater perspective. I also don't see how Gyalse Rinpoche's quatrain is at all pessimistic.
What Buddhists, including the Dalai Lama say, is that even pleasure is suffering, because those that have an extraordinarily long view can see that pleasure always leads to suffering. I think what helps me a lot is to be 1. less afraid of suffering, and 2. less enamored with pleasure. That way a contented middle ground that enjoys the present more and worries about the future less is easier to enjoy and return to in any given moment.
If you believe in your heart you have the capacity to have a rich and fulfilling life, then, perhaps you can consider that what the Rinpoche is saying does not really contradict that? After all, every spiritual master of every persuasion I have ever heard of has said pretty much the same thing at some time. Even Jesus talked about how we strive and worry, yet the flowers in the fields have the most wonderful clothes of all.
For me these kinds of statements are helpful. If nothing else they provide a balance to a life that is too exposed to people with agendas (like politicians, advertisers, and pretty much everyone with something to sell) always trying to entice us into giving their services and products a try, for a reasonable fee, of course. After all, they never tell us that even if we buy their product or give them our vote or go to work for them that it will probably lead to dissatisfaction. Yet, as a mature person I know that it will. I also know that a person can be very happy and very content if they work realistically in ways that cause that. The thing is, I know of no way to do that without the long long view of the Dharma, allowing me to dedicate every possession and experience to enlightenment. So even contentment in the present is dependent on right view, or realistic and genuinely positive perspective.
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matt
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Post by matt on Aug 18, 2013 21:05:29 GMT 1
Let me be clear, I buy things, I vote, and I make plans. I know that making plans is a little foolish, because it is a way of hiding from my self the fact that I could die at anytime, easily before my plans are underway, much less fulfilled. I also know that striving causes suffering. The art of my life is in not investing a lot of hope and emotions in foolish things, but rather letting myself be happy right now. I know from experience that happiness right now is dependent on many truths in the Dharma. I can find it any time, though. Recently I did some work on the oustide of an old farm house in the middle of a heat wave. Many times despite the arduous conditions I realized I was really enjoying myself. Life is kind of like that. The Dharma is kind of like that. It is like walking up hill. We know it is not the same kind of pleasure as laying on a beach, but as long as we make the effort, expect some discomfort, and don't get distracted into running down hill for an icee, it can actually be immensely enjoyable. Thinking that transitory things can lead to anything but dissatisfaction (ultimately), or that life is going to bend to our desires, that is not going to make life any more enjoyable, in fact that is a good way to compound suffering and make ourselves miserable.
Gyalso Rinpoche believes he is kind in saying those things. Who can really say he is wrong? I think it is just advice, if it is not helpful, don't worry about it. I have never written anything like that, but I believe his perspective is much greater than mine. But to say it is Ridiculous? Sorry, that seems like an over-reaction to me.
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graham
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Post by graham on Aug 19, 2013 22:44:18 GMT 1
Gyalso Rinpoche believes he is kind in saying those things. Who can really say he is wrong? I think it is just advice, if it is not helpful, don't worry about it. I have never written anything like that, but I believe his perspective is much greater than mine. But to say it is Ridiculous? Sorry, that seems like an over-reaction to me. It's a reaction, anyways. Don't really know what an "over-reaction" means. It's how I feel. Sorry, but this is where Buddhism and my own personal beliefs diverge. To say that making plans and having ambitions is futile is, in my view, ridiculous. You said earlier that all pleasure leads to suffering. I say so what? Setting goals and accomplishing things is worth it to me, regardless of their emptiness and eventual contribution to suffering. I coach a sports team and we just won our second national championship in a row. It's meaningless, but the the sense of accomplishment I felt from that, as well as that which the entire team shared, is one of the highlights of my life. I will continue to chase that feeling by trying to accomplish more, because it's worth it. Seeking to become enlightened, to save all sentient beings, or to end one minor negative emotion, are all forms of planning and ambition, no? So I feel Rinpoche is being very unskillful in the way he is presenting this advice, and this affirms my original post that Buddhism can have a very pessimistic view of the world... or at least a pessimistic view of explaining it. |
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matt
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Post by matt on Aug 20, 2013 17:36:42 GMT 1
I can see why you find it unskillful, it turns you off and could turn you or others off the Dharma. I find it interesting that you say you will continue to chase that feeling by trying to accomplish more, because it is worth it. Again, this is a difference in perspective. Once in 1990, I saw an interview with the Dalai Lama. He said that our (typical Western ideal of life) has a lot of emotional ups and downs, and the Buddhist way is more even. I think it is a matter of perspective to understand that every high has a low. To me, accomplishment, that feeling is much more enjoyable with detachment and dedication. You might consider dedicating your victory to the happiness of all sentient beings. I know you got to share it with the team, and that is part of the joy. Why not at least aspire to share it with everyone? If I thought I was trying to diminish your joy at all, I wouldn't suggest it. I remember what victory or accomplishment with a great deal of attachment feels like. There are much, much more enjoyable states of being that are far more reliable once you get the hang of them. But hey, it is a free world, chase away, and I wish you every success.  Anyway, I still strive for things. I just think death is an excellent advisor. |
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dan
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Post by dan on Aug 26, 2013 13:32:09 GMT 1
Graham wrote:
An over-reaction, in this context, is the emotion-based rhetoric supporting refuge in your personal views over the Dharma. Perhaps this is projecting pessimism onto the teaching since, realistically, death surely comes to those who have other plans.
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Post by schnoebi on Aug 27, 2013 10:42:13 GMT 1
Buddhists appearing to be life hating? I don't know. I have heard it said that they are also too self obsessed, joyless, disconnected, have no concept of being thankful or grateful, and are very smug with their particular view on life, universe and everything - but that is probably a distorted view too.
The Buddhist method is joyful and life engaging as it provides a process of stripping away our attachments, (to self and everything else in an equal measure) so that one can engage in life fully. That is where the joy is.
Like a wine taster who after swilling, snorting and spitting out the wine comments "this one has a note of manure... not ostrich, but more alligator, I reckon it would go really well with picketed herring.. Has anyone got any pickled herring? No? Oh well... " oh, the joy of labels...
I consider renunciation as another form of attachment, unless done out of curiosity.
As for making love to another, for procreation or for other reasons, try repeating the mantra "it's not about me" and you may be surprised by the result.
So one can have the view that Buddhists are life engaging. By proactively removing the obstructions and obscurations from their perceptions, they are able to see more sharply, hear more acutely, taste more precisely, touch more sensitively, think and speak more clearly. If you add some unconditional love and compassionate action to all sentient beings. The joy follows..
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graham
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Post by graham on Aug 28, 2013 14:27:23 GMT 1
Graham wrote: An over-reaction, in this context, is the emotion-based rhetoric supporting refuge in your personal views over the Dharma. Perhaps this is projecting pessimism onto the teaching since, realistically, death surely comes to those who have other plans. When did I say death wouldn't come? I assure you, I have no plans to avoid it. |
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graham
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Post by graham on Aug 28, 2013 14:28:48 GMT 1
Buddhists appearing to be life hating? I don't know. I have heard it said that they are also too self obsessed, joyless, disconnected, have no concept of being thankful or grateful, and are very smug with their particular view on life, universe and everything - but that is probably a distorted view too. The Buddhist method is joyful and life engaging as it provides a process of stripping away our attachments, (to self and everything else in an equal measure) so that one can engage in life fully. That is where the joy is. Like a wine taster who after swilling, snorting and spitting out the wine comments "this one has a note of manure... not ostrich, but more alligator, I reckon it would go really well with picketed herring.. Has anyone got any pickled herring? No? Oh well... " oh, the joy of labels... I consider renunciation as another form of attachment, unless done out of curiosity. As for making love to another, for procreation or for other reasons, try repeating the mantra "it's not about me" and you may be surprised by the result. So one can have the view that Buddhists are life engaging. By proactively removing the obstructions and obscurations from their perceptions, they are able to see more sharply, hear more acutely, taste more precisely, touch more sensitively, think and speak more clearly. If you add some unconditional love and compassionate action to all sentient beings. The joy follows.. Very good advice. |
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jeff
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Post by jeff on Aug 28, 2013 15:35:14 GMT 1
Buddhists appearing to be life hating? I don't know. Certainly not... Lama Tsongkhapa said: "Seeking samsaric pleasures is the door to all suffering" I'm quite sure he didn't mean enjoying samsaric pleasures is the door to all suffering. The difference is HUGE... Jeff |
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Post by Rudy on Aug 29, 2013 8:48:30 GMT 1
The difference is HUGE...
In theory, yes.
In practice, there is very little difference in a mind that does not have renunciation. In my mind, it's only a very small step from enjoying chocolate to wanting more chocolate, otherwise we would have only few problems with attachment and addiction.
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