Bliss and emptiness

What Rudy said sounds right to me, but I will give you a possible alternative. To give you an idea how ignorant of teachings I am, I have never heard or read that "often heard" direction. So can you give us a couple of examples of where you have read it or heard it? I am asking because small changes in words can mean huge changes in meaning, something I have wanted to tell people when they have misquoted me, even slightly, on this forum before.

Anyway, another possibility, is because although most events happen in a particular order, you try not to put the cart before the horse, for example, bliss and emptiness are a little different. Bliss can mean a lot of different kinds of release, like you say. There are forms of bliss that people might experience through meditation or chanting quite a while before they consciously realize, or intentionally penetrate emptiness. But it is because phenomena are empty, that we can experience some kind of bliss. One form of bliss is the absence of conceptualization. Another form is the sense of dissolving of constructs and or the release of potentials, or you may sense heat or have some other sense of release. I think if you feel a sense of spaciousness and flow in meditation, you could call that bliss. Either way, one could use these horses, so to speak, to intuit the cart of emptiness, I suppose. That would be a an intuitive approach that would arise spontaneously when you experience some kind of bliss, because some one has told you you can use it to penetrate emptiness. We tend not to experience things, until we know they are possible.

Once you have found emptiness on the other hand, you can find a lot of paths that return you to it. There are a lot of ways to approach the emptiness of an object. So this seems to be saying, if you are experiencing a form of bliss in meditation, that can be a path to intuit your non duality with an object (penetration) and realize it is empty. An object can be anything you want to take up, a thought, a feeling, an issue, an aspiration, your self, your body or any part of it, all sentient beings, even voidness in general, I suppose, what ever life seems to indicate you need to concentrate on at the moment. Eventually the cart and the horse become interchangeable. It is a similar dynamic with the union of wisdom and method. Eventually you know from experience and analysis what you will find in emptiness, and you find it there, but that is later. A lot of people have a more intuitive approach to begin with, and using bliss to penetrate emptiness is a good direction to people who have better concentration than analytical understanding in my opinion, just based on reading it for the first time that I can remember.

Ah so! That was excellent, Rudy, thanks.

But that is precisely why, how you phrased the question, how do you do it, is impolite, because it is really putting people on the spot and dictating how they should answer. You ask a lot of challenging questions, Jeff, which is fine with me, but I wouldn't put people on the spot about their experience or their practice any more than you have to. It is enough to ask, what does this mean to you? Then anyone is free to answer in a proper fashion, or in a way they feel comfortable with. Unlike people wiser than myself, I sometimes talk about my own experience, but most Lamas I know would simply refuse to describe their own experience, they would consider that vain and counter productive.

At any rate, in light of Rudy's answer and more detail from you, I would just point out that engaging the Central Nerve Chanel is analogous to a wish for all sentient beings. The two approaches accomplish the same thing. So like Rudy said, it could be another way, a more Tantric way of describing Union, and it could also work precisely the way he said, making practice something to look forward to instead of something to put off in favor of more TV or whatever...

Why your practice can be sealed with meditation on emptiness or why emptiness is sometimes called "the Great Seal" would be a lot harder to answer. I could write along time about that and not help anyone, I'm sure. It seems to me the kind of direction it is best just to meditate on and follow as well as you can, until it makes sense to you. Except I could say it is because of union that emptiness can be described as a seal, in my opinion. The same reason Chan Buddhists sometimes say the "true order," or conversely, why some teachings are adventitious.

But if you come across a good explanation for it, then please share it.

No biggie. I like your questions, they are interesting.

You know, you may have noticed working with Buddhist teachers, even great Lamas or Nuns, they will give the answer they think is appropriate in the way they feel is beneficial. There is no guarantee we are going to understand it all right then, or even feel like they answered the question, but if we meditate on their answer, then we gain insight. There is a lot of apparent obscurity in how teachings and instructions are phrased, that can take a long time to come into focus. It's not always as simple as the intellectual learning we are used to, where there may be a correct single answer. I think the words and instructions in teachings, although they have a very specific meaning, are also designed to have a positive effect as we meditate on them. That effect will gradually change the whole context of our experience, and as those changes occur, a lot of things that seemed unclear at first start to make sense. I am sure you have experienced this in your years of study and practice, already.

No matter how intelligently we phrase the question, or even how enlightened the answer might be, it can only help us move from where we are to the next step, its not like there is a formula that once we understand it will whisk us to enlightenment.

Having said that, there is no problem trying to clarify your understanding of a teaching or instruction, no problem at all, and those questions you ask have inspired many great threads on this forum, so I am not trying to discourage you. I am just reminding you one more time, out of a sense of responsibility, that the best insights and understandings will come from your own analysis and concentration.

Also, patience is so helpful. It is an attitude, a compassionate attitude. The moment I decide to have patience with anything, everything becomes easier. With patience we are smarter, we are wiser, more insightful, more open to help and influence from our Guru and the Sangha. So while it is so important to want to understand, we have to remember why we want understanding, our enlightened motivation and we always have to temper that desire for improvement with patience.

No, but I remember what it was like to beat my head against a wall needlessly, and I have cultivated a tiny bit of patience. When we relax we are more open to positive influence. And thank you, I consider you a friend as well.