danf
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Post by danf on Jun 3, 2014 19:54:33 GMT 1
Hello again. I posted here a while back asking for the Buddhist viewpoint on dealing with a certain type of anger. I have another personal issue that I would love to have input on. Right off the bat, I'd like to apologize if this question is a little lengthy and specific, but please bear with me!
After speaking with numerous therapists and examining myself, I can confidently say that I have a major problem with obsession. Now, I imagine that the Buddhist stance on obsession is similar to that of anger. If you have no control over the situation, worrying and obsessing will only hurt yourself, just as anger does. Similar to my thread on anger, however, I find myself in somewhat of a grey area. What about an obsession that you sort of have control over? Let me explain...
One particular issue that I obsess over is what my friends think about me, and if they have some sort of false information about me. If it's something that I can casually correct in normal conversation, it's not a big deal. If it's not, then I have a major problem.
Just for the sake of an example, let's say that I somehow become aware of a rumor amongst a few friends that I've never had a sexual relationship with a girl (sorry for being a bit crass, but it needs to be a very personal topic to make my point). Maybe we're at a party, and they crack a joke or a hint alluding to that fact, and I don't realize it until it's too late. I'll go home later and realize that I missed my chance to correct them, and now they think something that is wrong about me.
Now let's say that I don't see those friends for a while after the party. During that time, I'll think about that conversation over and over and over again. I'll think about all the chances I had to correct them, all the things I could have said. These thoughts are extremely intrusive and prevent me from focusing on more important things.
So here's the main point. In this situation, I could correct them in order to stop obsessing about it. There are no laws of physics preventing me from calling them or sending them messages with the correct information. If I ever see them again, I could theoretically just bring it up in conversation. The problem in this case is how socially strange and awkward that would be. I never brag about sexual partners or anything of the sort, and I would never bring that topic up under normal circumstances. It would be incredibly out of character for me to just blurt out that information. I'd have to carefully and meticulously steer the conversation in that direction first before being able to do that.
This creates a massive dilemma within myself. In the past, the only way I've overcome these particular obsessions is by ultimately correcting the misinformation. Sometimes I manage to do it elegantly, while other times it creates a very awkward conversation. So if I'm obsessing over something as personal as the example above, I feel completely helpless. All I can think about is how my friends think this wrong fact about me. If I do nothing about it, I obsess over it, but the idea of confronting them about it, while completely possible, is frightening to me and could go either way.
In the same situation above, if my friends erroneously think that I'm a womanizer, I wouldn't be so obsessive about it. In that sense, this makes me think it's an issue with my ego and reputation. I've read the "Bruised Ego/Dealing with Criticism" section of this website, and it helps somewhat, but I feel like this particular issue might go a little deeper than that (but please correct me if I'm wrong). For instance, if my friends are correct in this example, and I haven't had an sexual relationships, I wouldn't obsess over it either. I wouldn't care so much about a "bad" reputation if the information is correct. It's the combination of being embarrassing and incorrect that really gets to me.
I fear that this may sound like me being kind of silly and immature, but this is legitimately how my mind works. I have a tremendous problem with letting things like this go, and can use all of the help I can get. Again, the example above was only used to get a point across, and is nothing specific. I don't mean to say that men should be embarrassed if they haven't had any sexual relationships. The point is that this type of obsession happens over subject matter that is not easy to bring up in casual conversation.
To conclude, I know there are things I obsess over that I have absolutely no control of. In those situations, I'm sure the Buddhist mindset would be to let those obsessions go. In the situation I explain above, however, I feel like I do have some sort of control, but it has an equal chance of making things worse, and I'm not quite sure what Buddhism has to say about that.
Thank you all so much for giving this thread any thought, and I hope to hear from you soon.
-Dan
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matt
Senior Member
Posts: 425
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Post by matt on Jun 4, 2014 18:37:14 GMT 1
Hi Dan,
I think what you describe is probably very common. Nearly everyone worries at times about what others think of them, and when a person is caught up in that, then it can be very hard to let got of. In general I believe nearly all modern people obsess at times, in the sense of there is something worrying or bothering us that no matter how much we want to, we can't let go of. So we think about it over and over to the point of complete distraction. This is a common cause of real suffering. So I think you are right to ask for help and or insight in addressing it, and you are wise to recognize it as a problem you want to address and hope to eventually resolve.
Now what stands out to me about the examples you give, and the problem of worrying what others will think or believe of us in general, is this obviously has everything to do with our idea of self, our self-image. We Buddhists believe that our belief in a self-existing self is at the root of most our problems and the cause, one way or another, of nearly all of our suffering. Furthermore, we believe this idea of self-existing or independent self is actually delusional.
In Buddhist science of consciousness and philosophy our sense of self is very deeply ingrained, and not a monolithic entity, but rather like a syndrome that arrises out of multiple causes. So that is one insight that eventually can be helpful to those who practice Buddhism in various forms, is that the sense of self we enjoy and suffer, like our consciousness itself, arrises out of component causes. Furthermore, these components are, like all nameable phenomena, utterly interdependent. This means that any phenomena: an object, a feeling, a cloud, my self--anything at all--is not real from its own side, but rather is dependent on other phenomena. Also, all things are impermanent in nature, everything is undergoing constant change. These two ideas, that everything is dependent and impermanent in nature, are closely related in Buddhist philosophy.
Are clouds real? Well at first the question seems absurd, of course they are. But if we really analyze a cloud, we don't find some kind of permanent underlying thing we can identify as essential to the existence of the cloud. There is no cloud-ness in the cloud. Rather a lot of conditions have arisen that together contribute to the brief phenomena we identify as a cloud. It is obvious that the cloud is always changing. If something is always changing, can it really be said to exist? If it exists in one moment, then changes, what exists in the next moment, the same cloud? If you could never have clouds without the many causes and components: atmosphere, Sun light-energy, water vapor, etc. then is the cloud really separate from the causes? If we say no the cloud is not really separate from its components and causes, then what about the components and causes of those, such as the components and causes of the Sun?
If the cloud is not a self existing entity, separate from its causes and conditions, and the causes and conditions of those, and of those to infinity, then is there really a self existing Dan, separate and isolated from other beings and their thoughts and feelings? If not, then who or what is so worried about what others are thinking?
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matt
Senior Member
Posts: 425
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Post by matt on Jun 4, 2014 19:20:11 GMT 1
So I am Matt. Is Matt real? Well of course I am, I am right here. I am typing this, well from your perspective I have already typed it. As a person who has quite a bit of experience with Buddhist analysis and meditation, (for an American layman) I know that if I go looking for the essential aspect in my sense of self, the Matt-ness in me, I am not going to be able to find it. Rather being Matt is a subjective and ever changing experience that arrises out of many causes and conditions, a lot of which I can identify as mental and verbal habits. So who is suffering right now? What exactly is worried about what you think about me and my sex-life, my manliness, my attractiveness or interest to others? Who or what is so concerned with what others believe about who or what? Who or what desires to be admired by others and why? Who or what is fearful of being looked down on by others and why? These are all excellent questions I have taken up in analytical meditation. I have applied, and do apply on a regular bases, understanding that comes from Buddhist study and practice, including analysis of interdependence and emptiness, to these questions and the feelings and thoughts that arise in response to them, and all this has gradually helped liberate me from those concerns, not entirely, of course, but enough to make a significant difference in how I think and feel moment to moment, and day to day. It takes time, but it works. There are a lot of so-called remedies for insecurity that amount to distractions. They seem to work, but they don't really address the underlying cause. Buddhism goes to the heart of the matter.  All this is greatly augmented by the practice of love and compassion, and these are relatively easy to understand. In Buddhism love is wanting others to be happy, and compassion is wanting their suffering to stop. Do you like to suffer? Do you want to be happy? Well, if you answer no to the first and yes to the second question, then you have all you need to practice love and compassion. One simply has to assume, that because I don't like to suffer, and I want to be happy, then this is true of others as well. So as an antidote to wanting others to admire me, and thinking and imagining ways to create conditions for this, or worrying about others looking down on me, I can redirect my concern to their happiness and suffering. Now at this point you don't actually have to act. It is good to recognize that we lack the wisdom to make other people happy and stop their suffering in a lasting way. But it only takes a little bit of thought or analysis, to begin to see that my desire to be admired, and fear of what others think, can actually be a hindrance to their happiness, and a cause of suffering for other beings. |
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dan
Senior Member
Posts: 89
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Post by dan on Jun 4, 2014 20:19:55 GMT 1
Hey Matt, Thanks for posting. I was obsessing a bit over whether my comments, which follow, might be a bit too harsh and your posts seem to bring in the compassion mine may lack. Dan, Thank you for your post. It sounds like you're making a great start, dealing with the many, many foibles of self. I am not who I was when I thought this. You are not who you were when you wrote that. None of your friends will ever be the same as they were. I think you illustrate your obsession quite well by the post and are wasting a lot of energy concerning yourself over what others, incorrectly or not, think about you. Personally, control over my own thoughts fluctuates (and is mostly illusory). Because we have more information about ourselves than others have about us, we have more false information (i.e., "wrong facts") about ourselves than others do. This doesn't mean that we are completely wrong about the events in our lives but that, because the self we are attached to doesn't really exist in the way we perceive it, everything we know about ourselves is tainted by emotional attachment--before and now--to that fictional self and its experiences. If we have a strong bias for that self, we may be especially concerned that others buy into that bias. But even that bias can flip on us...all the more so if we rely on support for it from outside sources whose own self-attached biases may not be apparent to us. Have you considered the nature of suffering as it relates to the spinning wheels of thought? viewonbuddhism.org/4_noble_truths.html#2As to trying to rely on others to support our erroneous view of self: viewonbuddhism.org/behaviour.html#3From Shambhala Publication's Ocean of Dharma Quotes of the Week for June 3, 2014 NON-STRIVING We begin to realize that there is a sane, awake quality within us. In fact, this quality manifests itself only in the absence of struggle. So we discover the Third Noble Truth taught by the Buddha, the truth of the goal: that is, non-striving. We need only drop the effort to secure and solidify ourselves, and the awakened state is possible. Ocean of Dharma |
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danf
New Member
Posts: 8
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Post by danf on Jun 5, 2014 19:53:54 GMT 1
Hey Matt, Dan,
Thanks for your thorough responses! You've both provided me with a lot of questions and ideas to think about, and it will surely take some time for me to fully grasp these concepts. I will revisit this thread once I've had time to formulate any new questions on this subject.
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Post by Rudy on Jun 13, 2014 19:28:23 GMT 1
Sorry for the late response...
Perhaps some more food for thought:
- Obsession is a mental habit that we do not want to have: at best it takes away our focus on more important things in life, at its worst, it takes over ouw whole life. It is useally pretty useless to try and convince the world that they have wrong information about us, it is much more important that we can stop worrying about it.
- Obsession is in general a problem of exaggeration. Somehow our own mind makes something much bigger and more important then it really is, so a very important thing can be to get yourself back to the original 'problem' and seriously investigate whether this is really important, and if not, why you make it so important.
- The example you give appears to be a situation where self-confidence is in play. Of course, self-confidence has lots to do with the image we have of ourselves as Matt clearly points at. I suppose if you look at the page about self-confidence, you may find some interesting stuff there, and how a lack of self-confidence is usually simply based on a complete misunderstanding about ourselves and the people around us. When we tend to think that others are much smarter or better looking then ourselves, and that we are 'not good enough', well, that is simply said a wrong conclusion.
Just look at the pop-stars that are idolized; many of them are or soon become seriously disturbed and overwhelmed by delusional emotions. All too often, their private lives contain little more then mindless sex combined with alcohol and drugs; so if that something to idolize....
- You could also probe deeper into the things that make you obsessed: why is it so important to you what other people think about your sex life? It is not their business to begin with... Why are you uncertain about it? If you were not uncertain about it, it is hard to see why you would obsess about it. If you try to ask yoursleves such questions in meditation and while staying calm try to get deeper and deeper by asking yourself 'why' over and over again, you may discover many interesting things about yourself that you can work on.
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graham
Senior Member
Posts: 96
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Post by graham on Jul 6, 2014 1:37:26 GMT 1
Hello again. I posted here a while back asking for the Buddhist viewpoint on dealing with a certain type of anger. I have another personal issue that I would love to have input on. Right off the bat, I'd like to apologize if this question is a little lengthy and specific, but please bear with me! After speaking with numerous therapists and examining myself, I can confidently say that I have a major problem with obsession. Now, I imagine that the Buddhist stance on obsession is similar to that of anger. If you have no control over the situation, worrying and obsessing will only hurt yourself, just as anger does. Similar to my thread on anger, however, I find myself in somewhat of a grey area. What about an obsession that you sort of have control over? Let me explain... One particular issue that I obsess over is what my friends think about me, and if they have some sort of false information about me. If it's something that I can casually correct in normal conversation, it's not a big deal. If it's not, then I have a major problem. Just for the sake of an example, let's say that I somehow become aware of a rumor amongst a few friends that I've never had a sexual relationship with a girl (sorry for being a bit crass, but it needs to be a very personal topic to make my point). Maybe we're at a party, and they crack a joke or a hint alluding to that fact, and I don't realize it until it's too late. I'll go home later and realize that I missed my chance to correct them, and now they think something that is wrong about me. Now let's say that I don't see those friends for a while after the party. During that time, I'll think about that conversation over and over and over again. I'll think about all the chances I had to correct them, all the things I could have said. These thoughts are extremely intrusive and prevent me from focusing on more important things. So here's the main point. In this situation, I could correct them in order to stop obsessing about it. There are no laws of physics preventing me from calling them or sending them messages with the correct information. If I ever see them again, I could theoretically just bring it up in conversation. The problem in this case is how socially strange and awkward that would be. I never brag about sexual partners or anything of the sort, and I would never bring that topic up under normal circumstances. It would be incredibly out of character for me to just blurt out that information. I'd have to carefully and meticulously steer the conversation in that direction first before being able to do that. This creates a massive dilemma within myself. In the past, the only way I've overcome these particular obsessions is by ultimately correcting the misinformation. Sometimes I manage to do it elegantly, while other times it creates a very awkward conversation. So if I'm obsessing over something as personal as the example above, I feel completely helpless. All I can think about is how my friends think this wrong fact about me. If I do nothing about it, I obsess over it, but the idea of confronting them about it, while completely possible, is frightening to me and could go either way. In the same situation above, if my friends erroneously think that I'm a womanizer, I wouldn't be so obsessive about it. In that sense, this makes me think it's an issue with my ego and reputation. I've read the "Bruised Ego/Dealing with Criticism" section of this website, and it helps somewhat, but I feel like this particular issue might go a little deeper than that (but please correct me if I'm wrong). For instance, if my friends are correct in this example, and I haven't had an sexual relationships, I wouldn't obsess over it either. I wouldn't care so much about a "bad" reputation if the information is correct. It's the combination of being embarrassing and incorrect that really gets to me. I fear that this may sound like me being kind of silly and immature, but this is legitimately how my mind works. I have a tremendous problem with letting things like this go, and can use all of the help I can get. Again, the example above was only used to get a point across, and is nothing specific. I don't mean to say that men should be embarrassed if they haven't had any sexual relationships. The point is that this type of obsession happens over subject matter that is not easy to bring up in casual conversation. To conclude, I know there are things I obsess over that I have absolutely no control of. In those situations, I'm sure the Buddhist mindset would be to let those obsessions go. In the situation I explain above, however, I feel like I do have some sort of control, but it has an equal chance of making things worse, and I'm not quite sure what Buddhism has to say about that. Thank you all so much for giving this thread any thought, and I hope to hear from you soon. -Dan Most people are truly ignorant, including you and me. Who could possibly care what they think? Your friends are just as much of a mess as you are. |
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tamara
Senior Member
Posts: 178
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Post by tamara on Jul 7, 2014 1:16:39 GMT 1
graham wrote: ``Most people are truly ignorant, including you and me. Who could possibly care what they think? Your friends are just as much of a mess as you are.`` Yes, you are right Graham, but does knowing this really stop the internal chatter? It helps of course but not so that we are FULLY at peace. Recently I found an interesting and quite entertaining talk on www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogH3KAge6zwby Buddhist teacher Alan Wallace. Listen to it, it is worthwhile and brings into a nutshell what Buddha tried to say in 84.000 teachings. Tamara |
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tamara
Senior Member
Posts: 178
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Post by tamara on Jul 20, 2014 3:27:16 GMT 1
Actually, I love the talk www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogH3KAge6zw I mentioned above. It says in the description: ````A.Wallace introduces the concept of Obsesive Compulsive Delusional Disorder as a way of describing our usual state of mind.```` There is a way to look at things from the perspective of a healthier state and this sounds quite hilarious at times. Another(a bit non-analytical)one: ````The fact is that there is no truth to seek or to confirm logically; rather what one needs to do is to discover just how much the mind continually limits itself in a condition of dualism.``` Tamara |
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